1 (edited by Justinian I 20-Jan-2009 01:01:38)

Topic: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

There was a time when US conservatives were pragmatic on both domestic and foreign policy, and by pragmatic I mean solution minded and efficient with resources. True to their pragmatism, they tended to be relaxed on social issues (such as abortion and sex etc), careful when making decisions, and promoted a free market. I call this Conservative brand Ford Conservatism because he was the last US president to be one.

But then something ridiculous happened. Reagan came in and all hell broke loose. The Republican party shifted from its earlier pragmatism to be dominated by religious fanatics convinced of America's moral superiority. To illustrate my point, Reagan criticized the very man who embodied pragmatism, Henry Kissinger (a brilliant statesman who ranks with Bismarck), and became infuriated when Kissinger's staff shot down his ridiculous criticisms during one primary election. Barry Goldwater was even disillusioned with the direction the party had taken. The party has since then promoted abstinence education (which has been shown as ineffective), tried to reverse Roe v Wade, been influenced by Evangelical elites, and on several occasions upset the global balance of power in a way that has been costly to the US. The list of non-pragmatic nonsense goes on.

I know I have not gone in to great detail, but I am just bringing some ideas to the front. In my view, the Republican party has taken a wrong path, and this is why those principle trenching (take idealistic considerations above practical ones) and wasteful Democrats have managed to regain power again. The decade's shifting from pragmatism has spelled the downfall of the Republican party, quite frankly because it has lead to unsuccessful and costly outcomes.

I am proud to consider myself a non-Reagan conservative. I am pragmatic, I love science, I believe in evolution, I say keep abortion and sex ed, I think people should be judged by their merit, I want a free-market economy and less government control, I believe the US should ease tensions and try to keep a balance of power, and more importantly I believe religion should stay out of politics.

Can the pragmatic conservatives present a modern image and regain power? Can they give the Reagan conservatives the boot for good?

I hope so, because if not to protect our country from the evil Democrats, to protect us from the evil Reagans.

2 (edited by avogadro 20-Jan-2009 02:46:31)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

"But then something ridiculous happened. Reagan came in and all hell broke loose. The Republican party shifted from its earlier pragmatism to be dominated by religious fanatics convinced of America's moral superiority."

i disagree, that happened before Reagan. What happened was the hippie movements of the late 60's early 70's alienated the older, conservative, and religious minded democrats from the party and they became republicans; Nixon's election showed this and the demographics of which states leaned to which side is practically the same today as it was when Nixon was elected. Reagen was able to destroy alot of the damage Carter had done while paying lip service to the religious fundamentalists. overall he did a pretty good job, imo.

3 (edited by Black_Wing 20-Jan-2009 13:27:41)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

Justinian...  Your views of Reagan's platform is flawed.

He was not pro-Abortion on a FEDERAL Level, he new the Govt. at the Federal level had no place in the argument.  PERSONALLY, he did not support Abortion.  But, it was FAR from a major concern of his .... ESPECIALLY on the National level.
Many pure Constitutional minded Republicans see the flaw in Roe, BECAUSE of the ruling the SUPREME COURT MADE.
Roe is a PERFECT example of an unchecked Supreme Court, and the flaw in the US Constitution.

Embracing Judeo-Christian beliefs is not a flaw.  Its part of the foundation that this country was built on.
They include Abstinence to be taught to CHILDREN, not different techniques in birth control.
Its not embracing Homosexuality as it has gone today to the point of people actually thinking MARRIAGE can be between the same sex.

In conservative circles, GW Bush is a Ford Republican

Kissinger was NOT alienated by Reagan.  Reagan didnt agree on Kissinger's Appeasement of the Soviet Union.  Reagan believed the US Stand should be a lot more harsh and direct with the Soviet Union. 

THESE were the main issues to Reagan:
1.  To bring back Pride to America, The first point was to bring home the American Hostages from Iran.
2.  To rebuild the neglected Military that Carter had done is best to dismantle.
3.  To restructure the Abusive Tax code.  To free up small business from the federal tax burden.  To eliminate as many Govt. controls and regulations from big business.

These so called "Religious" issues were NOT, and today are still NOT, primary factors in the Conservative party.

Clinton had Jessie Jackson to the White House for "Spiritual Consultation" after Monica Lewinsky.
Carter continuously invoked God and spirituality in his speeches.
Obama invokes God, is shown in his new church.


TODAY, watch the inauguration.
You will see many religious connections......including the swearing on the bible as he takes the oath of President.

So help him GOD.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

OK thats not a good assessment. Reagan turned around a 70%? tax on the rich to a 30%? tax on the rich, which with that one change alone DOUBLED the tax revenues, and eliminated the soaring inflation at the same time. Additionally Reagan took a hard line against Communism with his military build up across the board, something the USSR could not take.


Sadly even though he cut taxes and increased revenue, the Democrats who controlled Congress during his whole administration did not see fit to downsize the government, so the increased spending they kept passing surpassed the new income and the deficit grew.


So sad how they forget history so quickly.


Reagan was brilliant.


Ford was lazy.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

"BECAUSE of the ruling the SUPREME COURT MADE.
Roe is a PERFECT example of an unchecked Supreme Court, and the flaw in the US Constitution."

- So what your saying BW is that greedy, self interested, politicians should be able to over rule both the judicial system and the constitution?

"Reagan didnt agree on Kissinger's Appeasement of the Soviet Union.  Reagan believed the US Stand should be a lot more harsh and direct with the Soviet Union. "

- Kissinger  didn't want to start a nuclear war. I don't think Regan would have minded hidden in his bunker.

"Embracing Judeo-Christian beliefs is not a flaw."

- Correct. The flaw is when you force those beliefs on others through indoctrination and bribery (If you give a poor farmer in Peru enough money to feed his family for a week and tell him that be converting to Protestantism that local Church will give him and his family lots more hand outs, that's bribery).

"turned around a 70%? tax on the rich to a 30%? tax on the rich, which with that one change alone DOUBLED the tax revenues"

- By cutting takes by more than half, he doubled tax revenues? That completely defies logical in every conceivable way.

"In a world of global deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell

6 (edited by avogadro 20-Jan-2009 21:22:14)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

"- By cutting takes by more than half, he doubled tax revenues? That completely defies logical in every conceivable way."

ummm, maybe to socialist scum. but the US is ontop for a reason. high taxes kill incentive to make money; halve the % of taxes taken, and watch as people actually have incentive to work their asses off.

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

So...Reagan is the new Jesus?



Poor bastard.

Morbo: Morbo can't understand his teleprompter. He forgot how you say that letter that looks like a man with a hat.
Linda: It's a 't'. It goes "tuh".
Morbo: Hello, little man. I will destroy you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

Canadian ??    why should I bother answering you ?

- So what your saying BW is that greedy, self interested, politicians should be able to over rule both the judicial system and the constitution?

No.  read what Im writing. 
1.  Abortion, Its NOT a Federal Issue.  Its a local issue for Legislation.  Not making laws from the bench.
2.  NO ONE can overrule the constitution.
3.  The Judicial system is to, when a law is challenged, decide the constitutionality of it.  NOT write a law......but when the Judicial writes a law, like ROE, there is no power to overturn it, until a later court ruling supersedes it.   

Maybe tough for you non-Americans to understand.....but trust me, WAY TO FEW Americans even understand the Constitution and the separation of powers.





"Reagan didnt agree on Kissinger's Appeasement of the Soviet Union.  Reagan believed the US Stand should be a lot more harsh and direct with the Soviet Union. "

- Kissinger  didn't want to start a nuclear war. I don't think Regan would have minded hidden in his bunker.

Well, thats why people like you are so difficult to have a discussion with....because you make IDIOTIC, MORONIC, ASININE statements like above.




"Embracing Judeo-Christian beliefs is not a flaw."

- Correct. The flaw is when you force those beliefs on others through indoctrination and bribery (If you give a poor farmer in Peru enough money to feed his family for a week and tell him that be converting to Protestantism that local Church will give him and his family lots more hand outs, that's bribery).

FORCE those blind beliefs on others ??   My God......



"turned around a 70%? tax on the rich to a 30%? tax on the rich, which with that one change alone DOUBLED the tax revenues"

- By cutting takes by more than half, he doubled tax revenues? That completely defies logical in every conceivable way.

Well, thats because you are economically dumbed down.
Study LAFFER CURVE.

Google it up, and educate yourself.....Its only ECO101 first month course study.

Quick question.   If 70% didnt get enough tax confiscated out of the economy,   Raising it to 100% tax would get MORE or LESS ??

Laffer curve.  Supply side, (pushing out the supply curve by the way).  Trickle down.  Expansion of an economy by eliminating artificial forces.  Etc.

All basic course study.....that Liberals should at a minimum have just a small grasp of.



Is there a point when you will hide your money, ... to avoid taxation ??  Or do you actually pay any tax ??
Why bother trying to generate income, if its only going to be confiscated ??
Why bother working, if someone will just give me what I need ??


Are any of these concepts even remotely thought about by any of you leftists ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

9 (edited by avogadro 21-Jan-2009 04:22:56)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

"1.  Abortion, Its NOT a Federal Issue.  Its a local issue for Legislation. :"

why do you think that?


also, cant states still make abortion illegal? they just have to define the beginning of life at conception and Roe v Wade doesnt cover it. and actually, the President could make it illegal. the executive branch has the responsibility to enforce laws. if the Executive branch interprets the fetus as a living being, they can arrest everyone involved in an abortion for murder, conspiracy to commit murder, ect. as long as there isnt a law or Supreme Court decision that says the fetus doesnt count as a living being; which im fairly sure doesnt exist.

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

Hahaha CanadianTire is so ignorant, so stupid as to not know the simplest of economics.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

11 (edited by Schniepel 21-Jan-2009 11:15:24)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

cant such posts be simply deleted? i mean.. they follow no meaning but provocation..
i mean.. flint being around allready is provocation enough...
btw.. megalomania is a serious illness and can be cured...

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

Flint, debating is appreciated, trolling isn't. you don't like it when it happens to you either.

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

He is not debating, he is spouting. When he studies and comes back, then he can try to debate. At this moment he is essentially trolling and I am reversing the trolling.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Ford Conservativism vs Reagan Conservativism

A little one sided scolding ??

I mean, be real Primo.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.