I am with Billy Connolly on the national anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odNNgEn5l6s

fokker, you should also provide proof that 8 billion flows into scotland

how long will the oil and gas revenues last?  god knows what current estimates are, they change all the time, at decent production levels, i seem to come across figures estimating around 30 years quite frequently, probably somebody else reading this thread has a better answer.

anyway, don't accept that long-term, oil will be significant to scotland's future anyway, well, it can't be, it will run out, so we should already be looking beyond oil and using remaining oil & gas revenues to invest in the future.  scotland would have excellent position to be a significant supplier of energy to european markets even without oil, if you consider hydro, and possible wind & wave energy production, along with nuclear power, would scotland be able to produce enough power for sale that would cover the loss of oil income, again, i don't know, somebody else can probably answer that.

btw, to state my position, i am pro-independence.  somebody has said earlier this is to do with some english-hating complex, anyway, that's my paraphrase.  i hate the english so much the godfather to my firstborn is english, and i am godfather to another english guys kid, so my 2 best friends in the world are english guys, that's how much i hate the english.

hmm, well, for me, the independence question is dirtied by making it about economics.  i would expect that whatever the future would hold, there is enough skill and talent in scotland to allow it to do just fine economically, for me it's purely about self-determintation.

although scotland is rather over-represented in the westminster parliament it's still a minority representation, it's a body dominated by english mps, who i feel take decisions with england's best interests in mind, and if it happens to be good for scotland (or wales or northern ireland), that's just an added bonus.  i mean, it's not a surprise, that english mps will look to englands interests first, so no point crying about it, but i don't accept that it's the only possible future for scotland.

anyway, that's my rant over, fokker, i remember watching that performance when it came on, absolutely fabulous performance!

problem with these are that, for evey place you read that scotland receives 8 billion above what it earns, there's another one saying the opposite:

http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/world/do%20the%20scots%20subsidise%20the%20english/166260

well, i could have posted more, but you understand my point i think, where i'm saying that the economic issue isn't a driver for me in considering independence, because the economics of the situation are somewhat muddied by both sides of the argument.  only thing i'll say about the economics is, if you accept that scotland has a massive subsidy from england, that if the westminster government hasn't been able to create conditions in the last 300 years whereby scottish industry is able to generate enough wealth to support scotland, then i think it's past time where scotland would see what it could do by itself

like i said earlier, main driver for me is self-determination, eg, trident, this is an issue where there is clearly massive public opposition in scotland, but westminster can vote to do it and situate it in scotland anyway.  there are other issues as well, being a little older, i clearly remember the poll tax fiasco, as i was supposed to pay it from day 1, and you can list other differences where scotland clearly wants to do things differently to england, hmm, student fees being another one.

The link is just an example that you can find that debate this subsidy figure, of which there are many, it was just the first one I googled   Oil, well, if England decides to make Scotland suffer, then I guess there will be some interesting court cases to come, I don't expect that Scotland would get all the remaining North Sea oil & gas fields, but no doubt it would be due a significant % of them.  Anyway, again, it's a side issue, we both know that Scotland can't mortgage it's future based on expected oil & gas revenues in the long term, it's just not realistic.

"That is not the fault of Westminster. At the end of the day nobody wants to invest in Scotland"

Actually, I think it is the fault of Westminster, government has a significant role to play in creating conditions that businesses can flourish in, tax breaks being the most obvious.  It seems to me that Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland have all been given a second seat in creating interesting business conditions for companies to want to invest in.

Hmm, back to oil, this is exactly the sort of thing that interests me anyway, we shouldn't care if Westminster wants to play nice on things, we should be deciding our own future

"So apart from tax breaks, which is a short term solution at best if my local situation is anyting to go by, what else is there that could be done to make Scotland a more desirable location for business? "

hmm, good question, tax incentives are obviously a big one, well, how about improved support for R&D companies, so the country could actually create it's own new business?  as a small business owner myself, i consider tax to be one of the biggest issues i face in growing my business, improved advisory services for small businesses, btw, i go very much from a position that it's small companies that create jobs and wealth.  when you're talking about ports, foundries, etc, i think you're looking at something that will never be significant in Scotland again, ie, heavy manufacturing industry.

"Could the Scottish refusal to accept the British Pound be having an impact? (if this is no longer the case then ignore this)"

what does this mean?  when i go to england, i very frequently have scottish currency refused, but i guess you're talking about something different...

"however everyone refuses the British Pound in Scotland as it is not legal tender in Scotland. I discovered this fact on a weekend north of The Wall in 2001is"

it is legal tender and always has been, i have never heard of such a thing, you are always getting bank of england notes in your change, and i've never, ever, been refused use of bank of england notes.  were you wearing a t-shirt saying "[w00f] off jocks" on that weekend or something

"So Scotland could be the international home of the small business?"  Possibly something like that, maybe some of those small businesses grow to be something big.  If you think of a similarly populated country, Finland, the state invested heavily in R&D back in the 70s, and now they have Nokia, which used to make tyres, cabling, rubber boots, etc.

There is not currently this strong investment into R&D in Scotland, I would like to see that, especially as Scotland has a good level of technical/technological skill, and a wonderful history of technology innovation.

That's the thing Fokker, not even the so-called experts can accurately predict what would happen if independence was to happen.  It's a little weak to say that because there is this 8 billion deficit (if you believe that to be true, I don't ) that there would be the same in the future, situations change, it could be better, it could be worse.  It's worth noting that the UK as a whole is running a deficit at the moment, so is Scotland's siutation any worse than the general situation?  I'm personally thinking that this 8 billion deficit talk that's thrown about, is a white elephant meant to make people nervous about wanting to fully pursue the independence route.

Like I said, several times, I don't consider independence on economic terms anyway, I don't think having more/less money in your pocket is a good enough reason to withdraw from the union.

Good reason to withdraw, well, I thought I'd said this already, it's about self-determination.  I think Scotland is socially and culturally quite different from England, and that we have to accept situations that we are extremely strongly against, eg, Trident, nuclear power, these are 2 things that the voting population is massively against, but still, we'll have to accept these things in Scotland.  You already see that we educate people differently, health service is run in different way, etc, etc.  I'm not going to write an essay about this, I'm sure you understand my meaning.

About Welsh speaking in parliament, hmm, I don't know, is it actually banned?  Or is it just out of politeness as most of the people in parliament won't be able to understand Cymraeg?  Actually, I'm not very sure what Welsh opinion is about the subject of Welsh independence.

I think that's everything covered now... I still don't like it, but I do understand it.

Regarding Welsh in Westminster: It is actually banned, but the reason you have already stated. To be honest I think the few Welsh that are kicking up a stink over the subject are just doing it for the sake of getting on English nerves.

You know what we need? A good war.

My opinion has changed from "Scotland wanting to leave the UK is [beep] retarded" to "Scotland wanting to leave the UK is unfortunate"

Gaelic: I don't think so, but then again I don't think anyone has tried to address the house in Gaelic to try and prove some idiotic point before.

I was wondering...

Is there medievel law still in UK because I heard of this guy that got sued by another person and the guy being sued threatened to challange the plaintif to a duel to the death(which is leagal by medievel law) if he didn't drop the charges.