Re: Resource-based economy

> avogadro wrote:

> i think for me, upside down makes more sense. i think the first thing i strove for was self-actualization, once i met that, i sought esteem, then i sought real friends, and then now im seeking safety and security

and though it may be surprising to some, i have never taken a physiology or philosophy class in college. so no, i have never heard of it before tongue






Okay, that's just kind of wrong on face.


1: You didn't starve to death, so #1 was covered all the time.
2: Perhaps the justification for seeking a higher level was to achieve a lower level?  For example, normally, a person can't fulfill love without physiology satisfied.  But what if a relationship was formed for the purpose of securing physiological preservation?
3: I agree that self esteem probably should come before friendship, personally.  That's probably the foggiest line out of them all.
4: By what do you mean "seeking safety and security?"  In fact, safety is usually satisfied just by living in a developed nation with and not being extremely poor (developed nations tend to have a set standard of predictable rules, so you know what to expect in the world around you, letting you act based upon what you can predict will happen as a result of laws).  Most of us have it easy by having our 1 and 2 pretty much satisfied from birth, so it's just a job of getting some cool friends and shit.  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Resource-based economy

hahahahhaha. What you said is in the Constitution isn't there. Whatever you think is "like" what's in there isn't like what's in there. Because you're an idiot and if half the words are the same you think it means the same thing.

Quote all the wikipedia you want. You were wrong and it's not debatable.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

128

Re: Resource-based economy

The similar language is right there in section 1:

"[...]nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law[...]"

Even when put in front of you, you still refuse to read it?

Did you mom have to force feed you or something, Kemp?

Re: Resource-based economy

I feel I'm starting to see a lot of the impossible ought to's =/

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

130 (edited by avogadro 24-Dec-2008 22:44:36)

Re: Resource-based economy

yeah, zarf, #1 is the exceptions. but you cant love yourself without knowing yourself. and then without being comfortable with yourself, you're not going to expose your true self to strangers and develop true, deep relationships instead of pretending to be cool and hanging out with people that pretend to be cool. Once you develop important relationships, you're going to seek to protect them.

thats how everything goes backwards with the exception of #1. but #1 doesnt even belong on the list. when people loose #1, they're on their deathbed; but people on their deathbed dont all of a sudden hate their loved ones, they usually try to spend time with their loved ones, and still feel the need to protect them.

Re: Resource-based economy

>>"[...]nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law[...]"<<

Is nothing like "nor shall any State refuse to deprive any person of their property in order to distribute it to other people in order that they should have equal opportunities allowed by wealth as well as under the law."

You don't have the reading comprehension skills to discuss this issue with me. You claim that one statement is "similar" to a very different statement which, in fact, violates the first statement. Keep insulting me if you think it's effective; you're a complete retard. It's adorable.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Resource-based economy

so you think self-actualization, esteem, belonging, and security are needed inorder for an individual to be happy?

133 (edited by xeno syndicated 26-Dec-2008 14:38:18)

Re: Resource-based economy

Everyone has the right to equal opportunity to pursue happiness.

The state cannot deprive anyone the opportunity to pursue happiness (without due process of law).

These sound pretty much the same to me.

Based on the 14th amendment,  when technology can provide basic needs for little or no financial cost, I would argue that the fulfillment of basic needs would then become a constitutional right.  Either basic needs would have to be provided to the citizen by the state  AND / OR  the state would have to abolish any and all laws and / or regulations which interfere with the individual's right to provide these basic needs for him or herself.

Re: Resource-based economy

so you think self-actualization, esteem, belonging, and security are needed inorder for an individual to be happy?

135 (edited by xeno syndicated 26-Dec-2008 14:47:28)

Re: Resource-based economy

Yes and no, avo.  I think basic needs must be adequately fulfilled before an individual can be happy, because, in order to be happy, one needs to at least have the opportunity to pursue higher needs, whatever form that individual may take them to be.

An individual can be happy only if he or she at least has basic needs fulfilled AND, therefore, the opportunity to pursue his or her personal, higher needs.

136 (edited by avogadro 26-Dec-2008 15:14:32)

Re: Resource-based economy

In reality, adjectives are comparisons, and without having to struggle for basic needs, their idea of what is "basic" needs just goes higher and just gets more expensive until you can no longer easily supply it.

Re: Resource-based economy

>>Based on the 14th amendment,  when technology can provide basic needs for little or no financial cost, I would argue that the fulfillment of basic needs would then become a constitutional right.<<

When's this going to be? The robotics you propose would still be very expensive to produce and require a lot of maintenance. This is really a non-issue, as it doesn't exist. And it's there's never going to be "little or no financial cost" to it.

They would sound the same to you, because you don't speak English very well. You're describing a statement protecting a right and a statement proposing a positive right (that people have the RIGHT to be GIVEN the fruits of others' labor) as similar. Good job. You're still a dumbass.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

138 (edited by V.Kemp 27-Dec-2008 03:40:57)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>An individual can be happy only if he or she at least has basic needs fulfilled AND, therefore, the opportunity to pursue his or her personal, higher needs.<<

I would argue that your perspective on this question reveals an insufferable ignorance and experiences lacking from your life. You speak as if rich children must be the most complete human beings, whereas they're as often dysfunctional as anyone else. Wealth is built out of lower middle class values. Creating wealth leads to a satisfying existance -- THIS is self-actualization. Being happy with one's life to the fullest degree. Being aware of the world and one's place in it and smiling. Having to perform labor to provide for one's (and one's family's) basic needs is a basic fact of life. There is no God giving us everything. We are not living in Eden. Ignoring this basic fact and thinking it is an impediment to self-actualization is just setting up a huge roadblock keeping yourself (and proposing to keep many others) from it.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

139 (edited by xeno syndicated 27-Dec-2008 06:41:10)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>This is really a non-issue, as it doesn't exist.<<

Prove it.

>>people have the RIGHT to be GIVEN the fruits of others' labor<<

No, i am not.  It would not be provided by any sort of taxes.  There would be no labor involved in the process.  It would be fully automated.


The system of robots and nano-tech providing basic needs for citizens would be run without a single penny of tax dollars after the initial investment in constructing the project.  And even this initial investment would be paid back with interest within the few years that the agri-complex gaining profit from producing product for the marketplace.


But, this really besides the point, because people are already given the fruits of others' labor.  It's called social services, which ARE paid for by tax-dollars.  With the current social services system, there is no plan to automate the sector, and even a systemic sabotage of any innovations that might cut cushy government jobs.

I'm completely against the social-services system as it is today.  It consists of a bunch of institutions with corrupt, socialist public leaches rather than public 'servants', the upper echelons of which are completely and utterly incompetent in implementing any innovations that might save tax dollars.  Instead, their whole aim is to increase their budget and diminish the quality of public services, holding the general population virtually at ransom.  Don't get me started on the public-sector, Kemp.

The process I propose if implemented in the public sector would render all social services redundant.  But, as a realist, I know they political powers that be wouldn't go for it.  Thus, it's the agricultural sector in developing countries that I'm focused on.  The developing world would be all for such innovations that I am speaking of.  The 'developed' world, however, I fear, would try to sabotage it.

With the system of agri-complexes established in the developing world, the vast sources of impoverished, cheap labor (if not virtually SLAVE labor - and thus how the 14th amendment would apply) upon which the economies of 'developed' countries depend, would simply become unavailable to the 'developed' world.  What would the developed world do then?  My fear is that the developed world won't let it happen.  The governments of the 'developed' world, I'm afraid, would rather wage war against those countries who would try and implement the 'automated production of basic needs program'.   You see, it is the so called 'developed' world's economies which have always depended on slavery, since the Greeks, in fact.  And the developed world's education system doesn't even hide the fact that they are modeling their system on the ancient Greeks.  It's all very clear to me that the 14th amendment of the constitution of the united states will enforce the right for basic needs for all people on Earth the moment the technology gets out.

So, Kemp, prove the technology to provide virtually free (de to automation) basic needs for all people on Earth isn't locked away under some multi-national corporation's patent?  Prove the technology doesn't exist today.  You better get started, because, you have the harder job, for sure.  For I guarantee you there are thousands of people trying to prove it does exist, and when they find it, the multi-national corporation that has it locked away with the patent laws they lobbied your counrties' governments for will likely be charged with being traitors against humanity.

140 (edited by Gwynedd 28-Dec-2008 07:20:24)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>>>This is really a non-issue, as it doesn't exist.<<

Prove it.<<

We don't have the technology to automate farms. It's a fact. To ask me to prove this is [w00f!]. Pardon my French.

>>No, i am not.  It would not be provided by any sort of taxes.  There would be no labor involved in the process.  It would be fully automated.<<

So everything necessary to maintain it will be both produced and itself maintained by the robots. Who will also produce and maintain everything necessary to maintain the primary production. Who will also produce and maintain everything necessary to maintain that which maintains the primary production. And all of this, ONCE WE DEVELOP IT (you claim we will, some day), is going to be paid for how? Who would intitially create this army of robots capable of producing more robots and maintaining themselves? You don't think the initial costs would be astronomical for this cutting-edge technology that doesn't even exist yet?

Couldn't be more in agreement on social services than I am, xeno syndicated. I'm not against having a safety net out there. Not everyone was lucky to grow up with a supportive family and shit happens. Their aim is totally wrong. If you get a lot done and go under budget, your budget is reduced. Your section doesn't need that much and the cut can go to aid those who "need" it more. WHAT DO YOU KNOW, EVERYONE CAN'T GET SHIT DONE. EVERYONE NEEDS MORE. Surprise. Never saw it coming. Great system.

>>So, Kemp, prove the technology to provide virtually free (de to automation) basic needs for all people on Earth isn't locked away under some multi-national corporation's patent<<

It isn't. No one has it. It wouldn't be a single idea or patent, it would be a WHOLE lot of different HUGE advances we would need. And they would most likely come from the private market anyway. Many companies are making big money by innovating electronics constantly. TV, phones, computers. Everything's getting smaller and faster. Whoever comes out with the next divice that does more things faster and is smaller (but with a bigger screen!) makes a lot of money. I know I'm buying my new Blackberry Storm on monday!

I totally agree that these mega corporations would do everything they can to protect their livelihoods. But automation is good for them. As long as they protect it, any efficient automation cuts production costs (that's why they do it!) and they keep upping the price on a product they continue to make cheaper as they automate as much of its production as possible. They just don't have NEARLY the capacity for what you're talking about here. And I'm still not buying that they'll ever be making MICROSCOPIC batteries, processors, modems, and motors all functioning together. We DON'T have the technology to manipulate individual atoms anywhere NEAR the extent necessary to construct any such nanotechnology. We're not even close.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

141 (edited by xeno syndicated 27-Dec-2008 16:43:28)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>We DON'T have the technology<<

First of all, why do you say 'we'?  Why do you identify yourself with multinational corporations with pending patents?  Do you work for one such multinational?  And if you do, are you really 'included'?  From my understanding, no one really is included.  Even the CEO of such a company is as much a slave (if not more so) than the office janitor to the chaotic, random market forces that elicit and / or dictate (however you want to see it) the company's policies.

I cannot understand why you would say 'we' and not 'them' or, more accurately, 'it'.

Now, I'm not about to go and conduct a bunch of research at this time, but I know as a fact that think tanks conduct feasibility studies on the sociological / economic effects of releasing -err producing new technologies. 

They conduct studies to determine what effects the development of, let's say as an example, a flying car would have on society.  And let's just say they determine that releasing such a technology would bring a new meaning to the term 'car bomb'.  They thus choose not to release such a technology and other such technologies all the time, and, in addition, even take measures to prevent anyone else from developing them, too.  Usually it is done simply by purchasing the patents to such technologies and burying them.

Shall we go through a list of patents to new technologies that have been buried in bureaucracy in the past?  Or would you like to save me the trouble and simply concede to my point so we can then move forward?

Off the top of my head I can think of patents for certain electric motors, hydrogen fuel cells, a certain crystalline computer processor, certain pharmaceuticals, certain GMOs, etc, technologies which could, potentially, do a lot of good for society, but are never developed because multinationals' feasibility studies deem they can't profit from their development or governmental feasibility studies deem them to be potentially hazardous to society - in most cases it is the former rather than latter.  Moreover, they would never use existing technologies to develop working devices intended to fulfill the basic needs of the impoverished human population of our developing countries for the same reason(s).  Take even anti viral drugs that help AIDS victims in Africa as an example.

On the other hand, Non-profit NGOs WOULD develop such technologies.  I would like to see our courts start forcing multinationals to release patents for technologies which would help increase the opportunity of the world's poor to fulfill their basic needs. 

What imminent technologies might fit that category of technologies that might increase the opportunity for the impoverished of our world to fulfill their basic needs?  Thousands.  What combination of technologies do we have today that, if compiled correctly, could be used to construct devices that could produce nutrition and clean water for low or no financial cost?  Such technologies should also be 'released'.

But instead of releasing the patents on the internet to just anyone who might manipulate the technologies into unforeseen, hazardous technologies and / or devices, there needs to be an international NGO which would ensure their safe development and implementation. If multinationals continue to horde such potentially helpful technologies, and not 'release' them to such a non-profit NGO, it will necessarily happen that such technologies will eventually be released onto the internet anyway at some point, for the good that will result AND the detriment from their unforseen and / or mis-intended development and / or usage.

We need such an international NGO, Kemp.  Yes it needs to be above corruption.  Yes it needs to remain non-partisan.  And, yes, it needs to be international.  I know it may seem an impossibility to you, Kemp.  But, can't you agree that it would be a good thing?  Wouldn't it be good to be able to start using all the ingenious advances WE have made in technology to start solving OUR social problems instead of having a them perpetuated by random, chaotic, easily manipulated market forces generation after generation?

142

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>>In reality, adjectives are comparisons, and without having to struggle for basic needs, their idea of what is "basic" needs just goes higher and just gets more expensive until you can no longer easily supply it.<<

I'M TALKING ABOUT LOCAL, AUTOMATED PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION OF CLEAN WATER AND FOOD FOR ALL PEOPLE IN NEED!!

Re: Resource-based economy

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> >>I'M TALKING ABOUT LOCAL, AUTOMATED PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION OF CLEAN WATER AND FOOD FOR ALL PEOPLE IN NEED!!


you're talking about reduction of labor so that people can fulfill "higher needs"

144 (edited by V.Kemp 27-Dec-2008 22:46:21)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>First of all, why do you say 'we'?<<

Because we're all humans, and NO ONE HAS IT. IT DOESN'T EXIST.

>>I cannot understand why you would say 'we' and not 'them' or, more accurately, 'it'.<<

Because WE don't have IT. Because IT doesn't exist. You wouldn't understand. BS more.

>>We need such an international NGO, Kemp.  Yes it needs to be above corruption.  Yes it needs to remain non-partisan.  And, yes, it needs to be international.  I know it may seem an impossibility to you, Kemp.  But, can't you agree that it would be a good thing?<<

No. Have you ever worked for or with nonprofit organizations? I have. They're NOTORIOUSLY horribly run. The majority of them are run awwwwwfully. The larger you make this NGO, the more power it has, the more currupting sources for its handlers. And we've seen how corrupt people get on the local and national levels already. Yes, let's give them MORE power and trust them MORE. GREAT idea!

I do not believe technology is the key to "solving" social problems. Too many corrupt idiots have been in charge for too long. Globalization has many advantages for developing nations, but the rich tend to bribe the leaders of the poor, who are as corrupt as the leaders of the rich.

>>I'M TALKING ABOUT LOCAL, AUTOMATED PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION OF CLEAN WATER AND FOOD FOR ALL PEOPLE IN NEED!!<<

And homes. And power. And, presumably, many other things.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

145 (edited by xeno syndicated 29-Dec-2008 05:19:59)

Re: Resource-based economy

>>I'M TALKING ABOUT LOCAL, AUTOMATED PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION OF CLEAN WATER AND FOOD FOR ALL PEOPLE IN NEED!!<<

And homes. And power. And, presumably, many other things.

Yes, I am, but at first it would be to start automated production and distribution of food and water for all, then, as the distribution system would necessitate a transportation system, free, automated public transportation would logically come next.  As OGLUs (off-grid living units) would have automated food, water, and energy production capabilities, fully automated construction of OGLU housing would be the next logical 'upgrade' of the system.  Finally, as OGLUs would be integrated with the internet and communications, a correspondence / online education would be next.  Of course, as OGLUs would be producing their own energy, a decentralized energy-storage / sharing system would also be incorporated at that time.  Finally, to provide for security needs, a volunteer emergency response coupled with a proactive volunteer health system would also be incorporated.  The notion is based on the assumption that we develop technology to free us from doing menial tasks, improve the quality and living standard of our lives, and increase our leisure time, all so as to pursue more intellectual endeavors and / or self-actualization pursuits (This IS what humans have used technology for since the invention of FIRE after all).

But at first, for the initial stage, I would focus on the automated food and water production and distribution system.

I am talking about robotics, nano-tech, renewable energy-tech, etc. all working together to provide people with free food an water at their door, BECAUSE it has been produced and transported for virtually no financial cost anyway! 

Whether or not this should or should not be done in such cost-scenario is not debatable.  In the event that it becomes possible to produce and transport food and water for free, of course it should not be done for profit.

However, what is debatable is whether or not it is possible with today's level of technology.  Why don't we start an analysis of today's level of technology and conduct our own little feasibility study into this endeavor?  Seriously, I'd like to have THAT sort of conversation with you all, especially if you take the position of a devil's advocate, but of course I would not like to continue this if you are simply going to be a devil (please refrain from insults).

Re: Resource-based economy

You do realize patents expire?

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ &#9773; Fokker

Re: Resource-based economy

>>The notion is based on the assumption that we develop technology to free us from doing menial tasks, improve the quality and living standard of our lives, and increase our leisure time, all so as to pursue more intellectual endeavors and / or self-actualization pursuits (This IS what humans have used technology for since the invention of FIRE after all).<<

Fire did a lot more than "free up some time to think." Your notion is flawed. Your intellect is underdeveloped. What you propose would cause underdeveloped intellect in others. It's like an intellectual disease! Gross.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

148

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"Your notion is flawed. Your intellect is underdeveloped. What you propose would cause underdeveloped intellect in others. It's like an intellectual disease! Gross."

I suggest you should delete the above from your post, Kemp.  I know for a fact that if you said that to a panel-member at a university debate, you'd be heckled by the audience, and security would come and ask you to leave.

Would you please show me how my notion is flawed, Kemp.  How, exactly would people having leisure time available to pursue higher needs result in their underdeveloped intellect?

Re: Resource-based economy

>> I know for a fact that if you said that to a panel-member at a university debate, you'd be heckled by the audience, and security would come and ask you to leave<<

Stop talking out your ass. You sound like one. I wouldn't have made a statement like that at a university debate. But then, even the most outrageous and insane iuniversities rarely see garbage of the magnitude you've piled up here.

You've completely glossed over justifying your statement that having 100% leisure time (not counting eating, sleeping, hygene... of course, more magical robots could remove the need for these as well! so why not!) is ideal for "self-actualization." You discount work as NOTHING but an impediment and detriment to self-actualization and declare that 100% leisure time is ideal for self-actualization.

I already inquired about why this does not assist the children of the rich who have little but leisure time become much more fully developed human beings than those who have to work; and often the opposite happens. You did not respond to this particular question. It's just one example. If you wanted to engage in a "university" level debate, you would have had to satisfy my questioning your lack of justification of this declaration before I had to ask it repeatedly in varied form. Hell, you OUGHT to have noticed it was missing sometime in post one, not page 6. You would be eager to improve your positioning statements and include the strong reasons you must think you have. In a university level debate, you would have had to satisfy my questions, not repeatedly ignore them. In a university level debate, repeatedly ignoring (aka hiding from) questions shows that a person doesn't have an answer and is just wasting everyone's time.

How many degrees do you have? Are you presently taking grad courses? You're clearly more familiar with University level thinking than I!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

150 (edited by xeno syndicated 30-Dec-2008 17:49:29)

Re: Resource-based economy

Kemp?

I'm sorry if I have missed any of the questions you may have asked?

I suppose I was distracted by your accusations, insults, and baseless assertions made without providing any evidence or logical argument, the latter of which is, by the way, quite more frustrating than the former, actually.

"I already inquired about why this does not assist the children of the rich who have little but leisure time become much more fully developed human beings than those who have to work; and often the opposite happens."

I don't recall you bringing this up at all.  My apologies for missing it.

Leisure time does not necessarily mean all play and no 'work'.  To the contrary, I would argue that people would have more opportunity to pursue higher forms of intellectual achievement on a receptive level (like perceiving art, watching films, reading novels, understanding world events so as to become a more informed citizen and better participant in the democratic process, etc.), as well as on an productive level (like making art, making films, writing novels, traveling so as to witness and understand the world and its events first hand so as to become an even more valuable, intellectually contributing member of the global society).  In addition, more leisure time allows for the opportunity to build personal relationships in which people find their esteem needs, sense of belonging, and even security.  In general, being freed from menial labor allows one to pursue a higher-needs-fulfilling life, as they do not have to devote the majority of their day to the stress of a dead-end, menial job which is, really, far more likely to render one's intellectual development retarded (on a side note, Kemp, this is how you are supposed to use the word 'retarded').

Menial labor so often required of people in the corporate world (office workers, stock brokers, engineers, sales-people, computer programmers, etc.)  is just as lacking in opportunities for them to use their higher, creative, analytical problem-solving abilities as, for instance, rice-pickers and janitors etc..  In fact, I would go as far as to say that the latter might have more opportunity for creative problem solving than those employees in rigid, top-down, pyramid structure organizations where institutionalized rigidity of the system creates an abundance of bureaucratic redundancies.

It is by the very design of such positions that leaves individuals intentionally intellectually debased, requiring of them only minimal creativity and personal challenge.  Monotonousness of traditional forms of work literally works to exhaust the individual due to exceedingly menial and mundane tasks, over long and difficult hours in dehumanizing working conditions (do you have any personal experiences of working in dehumanizing conditions, Kemp?).  The crime in all of this is that such a system is maintained only by having a scarcity of employment in society at large, else no one would voluntarily fill the positions.  In order to maintain this scarcity of employment, and high demand for those positions, a scarcity of basic needs is maintained throughout the lower echelons of the social strata.

Thus, Kemp, my good, good friend, I must disagree with you.  In fact, you are mistaken.  Menial employment is far more intellectually debasing than leisure time.

Besides, it is erroneous to conclude that just because an ignorant and foolish few do not take the opportunity to strive for the fulfillment of higher needs, even when the avenue to that opportunity is so apparent to them, there should not remain opportunity for the worldly, commonsensical many.