• Posts: 870

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

> Theodora wrote:

> > lmperial wrote:

> We are not talking about fruit or land.

To use your logic, we are saying an Apple that has it's appearance modified to appear as an Orange, and for legality purposes they count it as an Orange, even though on the inside it's actual fruity material is not citrus it's Apple. Then the Apple seed from this Apple thats appears to be an Orange is planeted, and to no surpise it's an Apple tree, yet the farmer wants it be considered an Orange tree.

My question is.. Do we rewrite the definitions of such? Male, Females, Father, Mother - Is the concept as we known it open to be changed by personal desire? Do we allow this misinformation teachings to passed around?


No, that's not my logic at all. You seem to have completely misunderstood.


What I'm saying is your playing the right sport but your in the wrong ball park, your comparing the wrong type of examples that can not dignify the same as to when spoken pertaining to humans.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Ouro
  • Ouro
  • Player
  • Offline
  • Posts: 1,184
  • Tag points: 50

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

oh man guys this is easy.  women were created from the ribs of men, duh.  those spare ribs everyone loves so much, slathered in bbq sauce, yup, that right there, thats a lady...

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 3,304
  • Tag points: 25

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

He is right, to an extend that all babies are the same until one point in the pregnancy(healthy babies that is). Although if you can say that they are women I'm not sure on that.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 870

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Acrocalex, that's true but NOT part of this, and can't be used as a valid point.

Reason : Because i have a seed, can i say that all flowers are just mutated seeds? None Sense, we are not talking about pretense of the womb, it's about HOW you are born, what turns in what in the womb has no relevance.

At birth, which i clearly state.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

30 Reply by ☭ Fokker (edited by ☭ Fokker 21-Nov-2008 11:18:09)

  • Posts: 2,151
  • Tag points: 4

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

@ lmperial

What makes you think it is acceptable to reply to my post with insults? Have I insulted you? No matter, I shall address your post with with my famous indifference, thereby further raising myself above your level.


> 1. Your a moron (SHOOT i tried.) <

You're questioning my intelligence with that insult to the English language? Oh dear...


> 2. Get some VALID factual sources to back up those crazy claims. <

I suggest you speak to your doctor as I am not having the "internet source argument"  with yet another Hooaa wannabe again.


> 3. I don't care about your Clitoris, i think I'll puke now. <

You should care, it is as perfect as it is gargantuan. Be sure to brush your teeth when you're done, you don't want teeth like mine do you?


> 4. Your claim is only valid if you can in fact with out a shadow of a doubt tell who was first in humanity, or in life for that matter, which you can't - Your argument is dismissed as psycho babble. <

First it was the Asexual creatures, then the Hermaphrodites, then actual seperate sexes came along after a false start or two. Fossils are fascinating, don't you agree? It's just amazing how much you can learn from what is essentially a billion year old rock. It's also amazing what you can learn when you actually pay attention in the classroom...
__________

> Because i have a seed, can i say that all flowers are just mutated seeds? <

No, because your sperm and my White Lady seeds are totally removed from each other by species, genus, genes, the entire..... wait, why the hell do I need to point this out, it should be obvious!

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 4,369

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

>>He is right, to an extend that all babies are the same until one point in the pregnancy(healthy babies that is). <<

Which is some point before conception, since babies have their X-Y chromosome combination already at that point? And here I was thinking conception started the whole thing. Man I need an education.

lol @ insult to the English language. I should start a thread purely to educate posters on "your" / "you're" and "their" / "there". Hell, when I grew up we knew that you don't even say your/you're the same. Damn kids these days.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 3,169

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

In the Australian appellate case of Re Kevin (2001) the High Court agreed that psychological factors were just as important as physiological characteristics when determining and defining man and woman.

Though they didnt go far enough to place a definition, they criticised the trial court for trying to place a legal definition on the term.

This was a case where a woman who underwent a sex change tried to marry another woman. Under Australian law, only a 'man' can marry a 'woman'. They were trying to determine whether this 'transman' could be a man.

Destiny is only for those too own to make their fate weak.

~ Geese

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 4,369

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Bloody Aussies. Can't tell the difference between a penis and a vagina any better than an X and a Y.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

34 Reply by lmperial (edited by lmperial 22-Nov-2008 16:52:02)

  • Posts: 870

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

@ Fokker,

i didn't insult your intelligence i insulted your impulsive reply with out facts, and completely ludicrous theory.

If i came up to you and said - Hey, a tomato is not a fruit it's a vegetable -

Thats moronic statement, and in turn you'd say, "Erm, no moron it's a fruit" - Thus your not calling someone directly a moron based off of their intelligence but, the statement incurs said response, don't be so off the wall.

YOU still DON'T have ANY FACTS or sources..

Your(YOUR YOUR YOUR) talking off of theories, and as said you still don't have proof, nor did you address who came first in the primate family, Male or Female, - You have no proof if sexual or Asexual were first to exist, your assuming based off the fact you only need 1 to reproduce asexually that it is how it happened, no one knows how life came to be on Earth, we can speculate, but never answer, your answer in regards to that is a leading THEORY but it is a theory as it were.

As for my typos..

I'm not here to type for your satisfaction, how i type on a forum, and how i do report or anything else that requires proper form, are separate, i type how I'm comfortable, and in turn i have some bad typing habits.
"Your" in lue of "You're"
Officer in lue of "Office"

Just habits, and thats that.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 14,366
  • Tag points: 68

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

in lieu

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

36 Reply by The Yell (edited by The Yell 22-Nov-2008 21:43:10)

  • Posts: 14,366
  • Tag points: 68

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Quit Flaming! or else.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 2,151
  • Tag points: 4

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

> lmperial wrote:
>Your(YOUR YOUR YOUR) talking off of theories, <

Facts, actually. But if you feel like being picky: Scientific theories (Which as we all know are different to plain ordinary theories.

> and as said you still don't have proof, nor did you address who came first in the primate family, Male or Female, <

You never said anything about the primate family, but again the answer is obvious: Neither, sexes existed for millions of years before the primate branch of the evolutionary tree. This is easily researchable.

> You have no proof if sexual or Asexual were first to exist, your assuming based off the fact you only need 1 to reproduce asexually that it is how it happened, no one knows how life came to be on Earth, we can speculate, but never answer, your answer in regards to that is a leading THEORY but it is a theory as it were. <

The oldest fossils in existence are of bacteria. Bacteria are sexless. Bacteria reproduce Asexually. This is easily researchable.


Now if you actually desire proof rather than an argument then go and do some simple research, you can go to the library, you can ask your doctor, and you can even use the internet. But as I said, tyhis depends on wether or not you actually want answers more than you want an argument.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 870

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Your the one making the Argument, i stated my point and backed it up with factual sources, you have not.

I'm not going to research 1 element of a point, you've yet not made, the point is NO ONE can clearly state which gender existed first, aside from that, the argument in itself is pointless due to the fact, the OP was based on at BIRTH, not conception.


So lets get back to the topic at hand, can we allow this to legally take place? Rewrite the definitions of Gender as we know it?

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

39 Reply by vissertje (edited by vissertje 24-Nov-2008 18:20:26)

  • Posts: 426

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Imperial: I'm not here to type for your satisfaction, how i type on a forum, and how i do report or anything else that requires proper form, are separate, i type how I'm comfortable, and in turn i have some bad typing habits.
"Your" in lue of "You're"
Officer in lue of "Office"

The Yell : in lieu

-----

haha that was golden ^^



so on topic...

What I don't understand is, why people refuse to accept things like this person being called a man, or gays being allowed to marry, things like that. It doesn't even affect the people other than the men/women/gays/etc. Why insist on making those people feel bad while there's NOTHNG to lose or gain for YOU. Imo it's just pure homophobia or whatever you'd call a phobia of transgender people.

Look, a doctor would still ofcourse take into account the actual genetic makeup, it's not like the scientific definitions of gender would be rewritten. This is a legal thing so you should separate the legal difinition of gender from the scientific one. For the sake of those people, who without this will not feel accepted and have this big identity crisis.

About the children being born into a so-called bad environment: you don't know those people. They might be terrific parents. Lots of "normal" families have terrible parents. Should they be barred from procreation? And about the environment maybe mocking them: if this were allowed and people wouldn't spread their homophobia etc. thoughts to their children, if schools preach tolerance, then there wouldn't be a problem.
It's not a good argument to refuse them the right to have children because those children come into a homophobic environment caused by YOU and the likes of you.

Stop hating, start accepting, leave everyone be smile

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 870

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

vissertje,


This isn't about hating on people who do disgusting crap like this, my personal opinion is they are disgusting, and should be marched outside and executed promptly, but thats my opinion.

The topic at hand is, redefining social nature, we conclude certain family make ups, and now people are challenging those very fibers.

More so, if a person is trans Gender (But still is a woman in all truth) to become a "Man", and recognized as such by the Government, then things pertaining to men legally, are now open to their reach, that is not right...

Everything from
Military , housing, Combat positions, ect
Education intended for men
Programs intended for men
Health care
Using of public restrooms


This is just pure insanity, the very know core of the world is at risk, and all as we know it is being challenged by disgusting ingrates.

As for the hate - They went to the media, they brought it upon themselves, they coulda kept quite, and kept all this freak show crap to themselves, THEY UNLEASH THE STORM WE ARE BUT OF IT!

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 4,369

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

I do not believe that children raised by two homosexual parents or by one or two parents who wish to pretend they're another gender than they are are being raised in a healthy environment.

As individuals, we are not the complete embodyment of the species. A man and a woman must join to produce a child; an offspring in which a part of them lives on. This process, which offers the only sort of immortality we can know, many philosophers believe to be the ultimate form of transcendence we can know as well. Sex is a naturally good thing. Its qualities of friendship, unification, pleasure, and transcendence are all positive. Chemicals are released during sex which aid in bonding; the same chemicals released in a mother at child birth (and for months after) to aid in the bonding a mother has for her child.

Men and women are different; but only together can they produce a child. Only together is the ideal (ie, should be the aim) way for them to raise that child. Two men cannot produce a child. Two women cannot produce a child. Pretending that because two men or two women can technically meet a child's needs after it is born does not change the fact that children are not naturally raised this way.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 385

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Gender is not so easily defined anymore. A lot is genetically determined; male, female, sexual disposition, and in rare cases hermaphrodites are born (though usually one set of genitalia is nonfunctional). In the wild, there is a lot of hybridization (for example, mules). You can't breed them beyond a single generation, because mule offspring are born sterile. Limas exist; Zebra and Donkey combinations are not uncommon in Africa; many dog species are hybridizations of one or more breeds introduced in successive generations. In humans and primates, the variances exist.

Granted, much of it can be mental; we now have individuals who feel they are genders trapped in the opposite gender's body; male to females, and vice versa. They come from all walks of life, but share very consistent stories: they all broke gender stereotypes as children, played with other toys, took on "unconventional" interests, liked wearing other gender's clothing, etc. Sometimes these can present as phases, but in these cases the effects are far more permanent and far-reaching. They persist through adolescence, where the real problems will become apparent. The individual can begin their "deviant" behavior and even go "underground" with their lifestyle. I don't think these are things to be ignored, particularly if they can feel extremely innate. For now it merely takes the form of a sub- or counter-culture, but continued exposure through our instantaneous media means it wouldn't be surprising if in a decade or two, such things are socially acceptable.

And in many circles across the globe, they already are.

Caution Wake Turbulence

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

43 Reply by Acolyte (edited by Acolyte 26-Nov-2008 11:24:45)

  • Posts: 385

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

I guess what I'm saying is, these people have existed throughout history. Heterosexual people will still exist as majority. Bisexuals will still roam the planet. It's only now, with our progressive era, and our modern technology, has this fraction of the population been able to come to light and make themselves known. Accepting them isn't going to increase their numbers, this stuff is largely determined by forces of natural selection. Environments can play a role, but I am not aware of any peer-reviewed studies indicating intrinsic harm to children raised in same-sex families. Just like acknowledging the existence of pedophiles does not instantly create more, just more come out of the woodwork because /they have always been there/ but without an outlet.

Caution Wake Turbulence

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 385

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

I also look at this from a libertarian perspective: Your body is your property to do with as you please.

Caution Wake Turbulence

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 4,369

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

You support adoption rights for homosexual couples?

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

0 Dislike 0 Post Points

  • Posts: 4,369

Re: What is a Man? Woman? Gender?

Granted, just as many will be quick to point out, a home with two loving parents (even if they're both men or women) is better by many measures than some sort of state run group home. But the adoption process in this country is royally []ed up. A lot of work ought to be done on it. The question here is the fundamental health of a child being raised in this unnatural environment. If you disagree with the word "unnatural," read above and get a science book.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

0 Dislike 0 Post Points