Topic: The Failing of American Democracy.

First off, allow me to say, I'm An American, a Marine, a Patriot, i love my country, however, i think Democracy has failed the test of time.


I must admit, it's biggest flaw, is it's biggest strength - Majority rule


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"    * Fairness: This can be further separated into two properties:
          o Anonymity: The decision rule treats each voter identically. When using majority rule, it makes no difference who casts a vote; indeed the voter's identity need not even be known.
          o Neutrality: The decision rule treats each alternative equally. This is unlike supermajoritarian rules, which can allow an alternative that has received fewer votes to win.
    * Decisiveness: The decision rule selects a unique winner.
    * Monotonicity: The decision rule would always, if a voter were to change a preference, select the alternative that the voter preferred, if that alternative would have won before the change in preference. Similarly, the decision rule would never, if a voter were to change a preference, select a candidate the voter did not prefer, if that alternative would not have won before the change in preference.
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Or even further into it -

The people.


Me, you - We are educated intellectuals, we do research, we have open minds to all possibilities, we have a person opinion on it, but we will allow ourselves to be educated on alternative, and possibly implement them as well.

Democracy was coined by the Greeks, and most Noticeable employed by Athens.


To understand Democracy we must understand it's creators.

The Athenians :
""
Athenian democracy was established in 510 BC under Cleisthenes following the tyranny of Hippias. This system remained remarkably stable, and with a few brief interruptions remained in place for 170 years, until Alexander the Great conquered Athens in 338 BC. The peak of Athenian hegemony was achieved in the 440s to 430s BC, known as the Age of Pericles.""


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This is very important read it, and reread it
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In the classical period, Athens was a center for the arts, learning and philosophy, home of Plato's Akademia and Aristotle's Lyceum,[1][2] Athens was also the birthplace of Socrates, Pericles, Sophocles, and its many other prominent philosophers, writers and politicians of the ancient world. It is widely referred to as the cradle of Western Civilization, and the birthplace of democracy,

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Read it again you fat lazy slob
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The period from the end of the Persian Wars to the Macedonian conquest marked the zenith of Athens as a center of literature, philosophy (see Greek philosophy) and the arts (see Greek theatre). Some of the most important figures of Western cultural and ******intellectual history**** lived in Athens during this period
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Ok, now that we know the Athenians, lets speak on what we just read, besides a small history lesson, or review for some, it can be said with confidence that the Athenians Culture was based and centered on Scholastic and Philosophical progression.

The Athenians spent large amount of time doing what most of American's DO NOT DO, and thats educating themselves on the aspects of life, and progression.

Americans, are stupid, we are - The Average American enjoys what kind of Hobbies?

Watching Football or other sports is timelessly popular among the Men

Football? A bunch of men throwing around a piece of air inflated leather, spitting, screaming, smacking asses, dancing in celebration of what? What did you accomplish? You scored a Touchdown, you moved a ball a 100 yards, You sir will go down in history as a champion...

The FK?


We are a very visual people, we react to visual stimulus, We want good looking mating partners, good looking clothes, cars, houses, everything has to "Look" good, that being said Americans rely too much on Visual aspects of ideas, rather then what they represent or intend.

That being said, few devices in the Modern world hold as much influence on how we think as people due it's ability to deliver visual stimulus, Media, Television, internet, ect.

Americans don't research or educated themselves on how they conduct their political rights, they let someone else do it for them, because of what hey are influence by is manipulated, want young male voters? Get some hot chick talking about how Obama's Economic Policies make her whet.

People are susceptible to influence, American's are Influenced by Media, Media holds no true bounds as to validity, as the dynamics itself rely on information that we the people can never validate, les we were intellectuals, which as i said the vast majority of us our not.


Democracy was created with Power in the people, Majority rules, - I believe the people in mind, were a intellectual sound society whose culture centered on Scholastic and Philosophical progression, Americans are NOT that people, while yes some are, a good amount are, Majority they are NOT, Our concerns are Money, Ass, Grass(:P), Gas, over indulging on unhealthy foods, and anything else associated with the procurements or sustainment of said concerns.

The movie Idiocracy is the best example that i can think of to relate to the diverging gap in understanding between the Origin, and Modern Malpractice of Democracy.

Democracy is power in the people, people can be controlled through influence media, media can be controlled in a variety of ways, people don't self-explore or research the understanding of life's progression political, or nationally, American Democracy has failed.

More Examples (These are things i've heard from American Voters Pre/Post Election).
Me : Who you voting for? ( 1 week before the election)
Girl : Obama
Me : Why him over McCain?
Girl : Whos McCain, I read about Obama in a magazine, and hear about him on the T.V., i don't know anything about McCain, is he running too?

(This one was the night of the election we were all going out for the night, w/ friend)
My GF's Friend (Whos mixxed) : Who'd you vote for?
GF: Laughs
Friend: Girl if you didnt vote for Obama i'ma punch you.
Friend's BF : She had to support her own race, ya know.

(3 Weeks before Election)
Me : How about these elections huh?
Older Woman : Yeah, i can't wait.
Me : Wait for what?
Woman : For Obama to become president.
Me : Oh so your voting for him?
Women : Oh yes, hes just so darn cute.

I have ALLOT more examples, but these sum up 3 separate reasons people voted for Obama, all of which are not educated, and ridiculous reasons inspired by visual stimulus which is so integrated into our lives we don't recognize it.

Sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Athens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

The thing about an American election, though, is that it isn't a true democracy.  We're a federated republic.  It is very possible for a candidate to win the electoral vote but not the popular, thus eliminating the nationwide "majority rules" phrase.  Bush did this in 2000 and everyone who voted for Gore was pissed that he "cheated the election."  However, the reasons for voting for Obama were quite ludicrous, in my opinion.  Anyone who votes for someone because they aren't white isn't trying to "transcend the racial barrier."  Rather, the racial barrier has simply been picked up and placed in front of someone else.  That is why Obama pretty much secured the black vote.  This nation is still racist, but of the opposite degree and until those who "promote civil rights" based on race are extinguished, we will never transcend race.

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> [RPA]Sir SupAll wrote:

> The thing about an American election, though, is that it isn't a true democracy.  We're a federated republic.  It is very possible for a candidate to win the electoral vote but not the popular, thus eliminating the nationwide "majority rules" phrase.  Bush did this in 2000 and everyone who voted for Gore was pissed that he "cheated the election."  However, the reasons for voting for Obama were quite ludicrous, in my opinion.  Anyone who votes for someone because they aren't white isn't trying to "transcend the racial barrier."  Rather, the racial barrier has simply been picked up and placed in front of someone else.  That is why Obama pretty much secured the black vote.  This nation is still racist, but of the opposite degree and until those who "promote civil rights" based on race are extinguished, we will never transcend race.
"

The point I'm attempting to show here, is based off the 2008 election and the overwhelming support for Obama, of which I've heard very few to almost no educated reasons as to why they were going with Obama.

Rather, we are a Fed. Rep, an Indirect Demo, Direct Demo, - It's all moot because in the end, it is about the people, and they people are as i said not as intended with the thought that the forebears of democracy intended.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

4 (edited by Gladiator 08-Nov-2008 20:30:22)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

too long of a post...

you wanna summarize for me?



EDIT: i somehow feel, i'm falling right into imperials trap, cuz while scanning i read "read it again, you lazy ass" something like that
but in my defence..i just read about 60 pages worth of notes... and have to read about 80  more within the next few hours tongue --> SUMMARIZE!! big_smile

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> Gladiator wrote:

> too long of a post...

you wanna summarize for me?



EDIT: i somehow feel, i'm falling right into imperials trap, cuz while scanning i read "read it again, you lazy ass" something like that
but in my defence..i just read about 60 pages worth of notes... and have to read about 80  more within the next few hours tongue --> SUMMARIZE!! big_smile



The post is Summarized.. if i was to give it to you raw, it would be more then 80 pages tongue

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

The simplest way to prove that america's governmental system no longer works is as follows...


The last three or four elections I felt as if I was voting for the lesser of two evils, so to speak...

So basically we're voting who will kill america the least, either way it IS going to kill america, slowly maybe but still. Last time I checked we were SUPPOSED to vote for the one that would help america, not hurt it.

as a result of the passed three or so elections I've taken to not voting as I REALLY don't want to be a part of America's GREAT downfall...

sad=(=(

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> Fysh wrote:

> The simplest way to prove that america's governmental system no longer works is as follows...


The last three or four elections I felt as if I was voting for the lesser of two evils, so to speak...

So basically we're voting who will kill america the least, either way it IS going to kill america, slowly maybe but still. Last time I checked we were SUPPOSED to vote for the one that would help america, not hurt it.

as a result of the passed three or so elections I've taken to not voting as I REALLY don't want to be a part of America's GREAT downfall...

sad=(=(



PAAALEEASEEEE don't get me started in the flaws of a 2 party system, good grief, that issue alone i could beat on for days, and still not scratch the surface.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

hence why I summarized it for the people of the IC politics forum wink

I could beat it with a dead horse too *yes I know that's not "right"... that's the way I like it X(*

but I didn't as I'm too tired to make a LONG AS H311 POST partially as I don't have the time, work beckons in about an hour wink

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

Totalitariasm FTW!

Get those lazy asses out of politics and create a paternal state. That's why democrats are so good.


(Democracy is fine, assuming your post is correct, most Americans are lazy, thus democrazy has worked to secure a liberal president. Liberals support government social programs that do societies work for them. Thus democracy will still work even when the people behind the democracy are lazy pieces of crap. )

Rehabilitated IC developer

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

BTW ..just wanna add

most people voting for obama were inspired by him..not voting against mccain...

while a lot of mccain supporters and mccain could only point to flaws in obama...

but let's not have that debate again, cuz i found out last time that a lot of the people on this forum are heartless(:P) and could care less big_smile(JOKE) --waits for BW to flame me anyways..

anyways...Imperial i read a little..some parts.. are you saying that we shouldn't let stupid people vote? is that what i should draw from your post?

11 (edited by avogadro 09-Nov-2008 00:22:20)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

imperial, do you really think this only exists in the US? its "democracy" in general and its a joke. and thats the closest thing to a compliment you'll get from me atm smile

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

@ A10, Which is why  i say the biggest advocate of Democracy - America - Had failed, in it's own abilities to upkeep Democracy.

@ Glad, No I'm saying Democracy was creating assuming the continuance of the culture was kept high within Political Philosophies and Scholastic understanding of where the nation was to move, naturally being progress, Americans are not concerned with that, American drunk with it's own success, has managed to turn Democracy into something it was not ever intended to be.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

I love how the right wing start bleating on about democracy doesnt work, just after their party loses.

If youd had said it 4 years ago when bush got re-elected you might have had more credibilty.

what do you suggest, an IQ test before being allowed to vote?

If you did that the republicans would never win again.

14 (edited by Justinian I 09-Nov-2008 00:48:07)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

Lol there are intelligent Republicans, it's just that the ones nominated for president have been intellectually inferior as of late. Lincoln, Hoover and Coolidge were brilliant politicians, for example. Hoover's problem was that he was like "oh the economy will recover by itself" while appearing apathetic.

And, conservatives have produced the most brilliant politicians, politicians that liberals never matched. Examples are Metternich, Bismarck, and Kissinger.

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

Even if that were true, (which i dont accept) how does that help ?

We're taking about the electorate.

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

Athenian democracy, though, didn't include everyone if I recall correctly, though.

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> avogadro wrote:

> imperial, do you really think this only exists in the US? its "democracy" in general and its a joke. and thats the closest thing to a compliment you'll get from me atm smile


@ I know this Avo, and i agree, but where are the biggest crap throwers when it comes to it.

The modern world in General has misinterpreted Democracy.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

18 (edited by lmperial 09-Nov-2008 02:42:26)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> Selur Ku wrote:

> I love how the right wing start bleating on about democracy doesnt work, just after their party loses.

If youd had said it 4 years ago when bush got re-elected you might have had more credibilty.

what do you suggest, an IQ test before being allowed to vote?

If you did that the republicans would never win again.


Perhaps an IQ test before your allowed to Post in this Forum?

Reread my post, and try to understand what I'm saying, Democracy, the act of putting power in the modern day person is not any longer the best form of Government, i think a Democratic Inspired Overhaul is needed, and a new  Government Genre in it's entirety should be constructed, one that works with the ever changing dynamic of the Person, and not with the Culture it's self, it's Culture to blame,

When i was young
I remember during thanksgiving with my Family would be outside playing football, and i was inside learning, or tinkering with a computer, i was considered an outcast, and they told me it was unhealthy, I'm in better shape then those who played football, I'm more socially active then them, and obviously more Intelligent, but thats the Cultural issues I'm relaying.

To be intellectually inclined is to be an Outcast, when Democracy was birthed, it was not considered abnormal behavior but it was considered the Norm, Your Scholastic achievements dictated your social standings.

As for Right Wing - Assume much? I wasn't for neither, i was for Thompson, when he was Dropped i decided not to vote as i did in 2004, due to these exact feelings, i won't chose one moron over another, i will voice my opinion with not choosing, and boycotting.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

19 (edited by avogadro 09-Nov-2008 02:47:58)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

"
Reread my post, and try to understand what I'm saying, Democracy, the act of putting power in the modern day person is not any longer the best form of Government, i think a Democratic Inspired Overhaul is needed, and a new  Government Genre in it's entirety should be constructed, one that works with the ever changing dynamic of the Person, and not with the Culture it's self, it's Culture to blame,"

the problem with all ideas like this is how to do you get from Government A to Government B? you think the people in control now are just going to hand over the reigns?

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

> avogadro wrote:

> "
Reread my post, and try to understand what I'm saying, Democracy, the act of putting power in the modern day person is not any longer the best form of Government, i think a Democratic Inspired Overhaul is needed, and a new  Government Genre in it's entirety should be constructed, one that works with the ever changing dynamic of the Person, and not with the Culture it's self, it's Culture to blame,"

the problem with all ideas like this is how to do you get from Government A to Government B? you think the people in control now are just going to hand over the reigns?



I agree, but i won't preach a Military backed Revolution, Yes, it's bad to state a problem, and a clear destination with out an agenda on how to reach it, but not all Governments were bore out of Warfare.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

21 (edited by avogadro 09-Nov-2008 03:11:21)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

the benefit of democracy and communism is they preach putting the power into the people's hands, so either can gain very wide support and make opposition futile. but if you promote a system where the power isnt in the people's hands, there will be no way to make it happen without military force. anything not at least appearing to be putting the power into the masses is doomed to fail in the US.

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

Agreed, But i said a Democratic Inspired alternative, i think the problem is we are still viewing it in the Archaic terms of White and black, and some of the more intellectual people view it in shades of Gray.

What I'm saying is lets get away from that is try an actual color, something new, something different something that works, and can stand the test of time as it were in relations to change in Cultural progression of life.

I never said it would be easy, as if it were - We would already be hearing about it, and well, if i knew a way to make it work, you'd be Addressing me as "Supreme Lord", tongue

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

well, i dont think anyone here thinks the american government or any government for that matter is perfect. we all agree they can be improved. yet, you're posting a thread without posting an idea on how to improve it..... what was your intention?

24 (edited by Gladiator 09-Nov-2008 04:56:58)

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

it's a government for the people by the people...
if you're boycotting it, you better STFU for the next few years...cuz you didn't take part in it, you let other people make a decision for you

if a majority wanna get screwed, they will vote that way..

they didn't this year.... so yay!






but it's funny how people start rejecting democracy when it doesn't go there way...

Re: The Failing of American Democracy.

"but it's funny how people start rejecting democracy when it doesn't go there way..."

its actually pretty common sense. i dont see whats funny about it. when the masses appear wrong to you, you distrust the masses, when they agree with you, you trust in them...