26 (edited by Justinian I 04-Nov-2008 18:54:39)

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Well the muslims enjoyed the advantage of conquering urban societies, and their culture was trade friendly. That permitted the conditions for a more intellectual-friendly society. The Europeans began to move out of the dark ages when people started to settle in towns beginning within Italy and Flanders, and a commercial society was slowly established. What's funny is that a lot of people moved to those towns to escape the nobility, rofl.

Yes, Western Europe ruralized around the time of Emperor Diocletian, and the huge cities of the Roman empire started to depopulate as people moved out in to the country. Starting with the renaissance, people were moving back in to the cities and founding new ones (though the cities weren't nearly as big as they were under Augustus).

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

As Islam was declining in scholarship and Europe was absorbing the fruits of Islam's centuries of creative productivity, signs of Latin Christian awakening were evident throughout the European continent.

The 12th century was one of intensified traffic of Muslim learning into the Western world through many hundreds of translations of Muslim works, which helped Europe seize the initiative from Islam when political conditions in Islam brought about a decline in Muslim scholarship. By 1300, when all that was worthwhile in Muslim scientific, philosophical, and social learning had been transmitted to European schoolmen through Latin translations, European scholars stood once again on the solid ground of Hellenistic thought, enriched or modified through Muslim and Byzantine efforts.



Mehdi K. Nakosteen

Joseph S. Szyliowicz

-Encyclopedia Britannica

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Yeah I'm not saying they didn't give the Europeans access to valuable information, but if that information reached the Europeans in the dark ages nothing would have happened to it. At best, you'd have a noble who understood some grammar. You wouldn't have a professor genuinely interested in classical learning, with a few exceptions in Ireland, Spain, and Britain.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

>Which helped Europe seize the initiative from Islam when political conditions in Islam brought about a decline in Muslim scholarship<

Isn't that what Justinian is trying to say...

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

no that was just talking about how, like all history, the knowledge changed hands.  the muslims planeted the seed and nurtured it, then began communicating it, then when muslim civilization declined, the europeans ran with the newfound info.  i'd give you the link to the site but i only get access to it because im a student at the university and you need student privlidges to access it.

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Then what exactly is the argument? That Europe's ascension from the Dark Ages was due to at the time, Intellectual Muslims who's academic achievements and advancements paved them way for the Westerners, and that influenced was passed along by trade, something that fueled the Muslim civilization? Ok...

I'll agree with that, but my question is so what... Whats the point?

People don't care about who invented the wheel today, they only care about who invented the Automobile,(and concurrently the most fuel efficient, unlike 20 years ago when it was the biggest.). i agree with history, it is history after all.

I don't know how we steered off the topic again (Happens allot i know, so many possible side discussions).

But i don't foresee the U.S. invading Iran, but then again.. I'm no politician.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Muslims indeed had a large share in getting europe out of the so-called "middle ages". Although, a lot of ideas and prejudgements should be abandoned. The middle ages were not the dark and unknowing times people often think of them. They had a whole different way of thinking (and I'll spare you examples and such, as it would most likely give you a wrong idea anyway). Medieval people were, in the first place, very practical people.

The Middle ages were not illiterate and intelligence forsaken, but intellectual work and such folded back onto a very small minority in the early middle ages, only to slowly spread into a wider part of the population (I'm going to refer to Elias' "process of civilisation" here). That what we call "humanism" (renaissance is meant for the art aspect of that time) is merely the city elite starting to participate in that intellectual proces and increased contacts between people due to a grown population. Thus, the "revival" as it's being percepted today is a hyperbole.
Also, there were other"renaissances", namely the karolingian and the 12th century renaissance.

Now, to reach my conclusion: What was the role of the Muslims? They held libraries that were vast, and beyond anything alike in the christian world at that time, they had a far wider and more thorough intellectual interest during the entire "medieval times" (they also had the benefits of sharing borders with Persia, Byzantium and later on India. While most of Europe wasn't that urbanised). There were places that acted like "gateways" of intelligent works. Some examples: Spain, Sicily (where Barbarossa's son was educated), Malta etc. In all these cases, the contact was with muslims, and they provided either new works, or better versions of known works (that were often summarised in compenia like Suetonius' work.

So, yes, the muslims did help with the intellectual bloom of humanism (or renaissance), but it wasn't the only responsible factor.

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Now some comments:

"Europe just got wealthier from trade and farming techniques, which allowed an academic class to develop. Sure the academics got access to classical western information preserved and copied by the muslims, but to be honest the muslim intellectuals were just as lame as the scholastic intellectuals in the renaissance. They didn't even come close to measuring up to the Greeks. The changing academic and intellectual atmosphere, in other words, was caused by the changing social organization and economic conditions of Europe. You don't have time for contemplating philosophy when you're either training for war or the clergy, or are a malnourished peasant."

Economy is one thing, but there were many other things that allowed this change. Like a grown population, accumulation of intellectual works, and many more. But it's a false argument that both scholastic and muslim intellectuals were "lame". I've read both of them, and it's stunning how advances their thinking actually is, but it's a totally different way of thinking than we have (wich is heir to the 17th century "scientific revolution"). In certain ways, they surpassed the greeks, who were rather lazy and reasonably counterproductive. One can argue that we idolise the greeks so much cause their texts managed to survive so long tongue

"Well the muslims enjoyed the advantage of conquering urban societies, and their culture was trade friendly. That permitted the conditions for a more intellectual-friendly society. The Europeans began to move out of the dark ages when people started to settle in towns beginning within Italy and Flanders, and a commercial society was slowly established. What's funny is that a lot of people moved to those towns to escape the nobility, rofl.
Yes, Western Europe ruralized around the time of Emperor Diocletian, and the huge cities of the Roman empire started to depopulate as people moved out in to the country. Starting with the renaissance, people were moving back in to the cities and founding new ones (though the cities weren't nearly as big as they were under Augustus)."

European cities were growing a lot sooner than the renaissance era. Most cities were founded in the 9th - 11th century, and the largest growth of the cities was in the 12 - 13th century, wich was primarily a population expantion, as a lot of new urban villages were founded in that period (referred to in the dutch historic litterature as "de grote ontginning"). Regional differences do exist, but it's undisputable that it happened before the renaissance. You seem to contradict  yourself with this even Justinian. You claim that it was trade and growing cities that enabled renaissance, while you say that it was in the renaissance period that the cities actually started expanding. You are correct that an economic expantion was needed for the renaissance, but as I said briefly above, there were other renaissances as well, and what makes it them different is the increased population, and with that the larger density and unification of people and with that a lot more contact between them. That is what made the 15th century renaissance 'succesful'

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Well, we already know that the US wont win a direct war with Iran, so they wont do anything, adn as long as the US doesnt do anything, so wont Israel, since they dont have backup from US.

I survived the Test? of 12-4-03, anyone remember that?

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

i may have mistyped, i didnt say or imply that it was the only factor, but it was a very large one.  you need banks of knowledge to kick of a cultural and educational renaissance.  that explanation was excellent, it mirrored almost exactly a PBS special i saw on the matter, really, it sounded like the narrator. brava

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

my plan for the middle east is to drop hundreds of millions of mini american flags made of asbestos into the region that detests america, and palestinian flags into israel.  the people then pick up the flags, burn them, inhale the fumes, and voila, 20 years down the road, population in check.

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

I added a lot of stuff to my previous post, please read it again tongue

"i may have mistyped, i didnt say or imply that it was the only factor, but it was a very large one.  you need banks of knowledge to kick of a cultural and educational renaissance.  that explanation was excellent, it mirrored almost exactly a PBS special i saw on the matter, really, it sounded like the narrator. brava"

I agree with that smile

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

the knowledge banks or the PBS narrator?

haha, either way, thanks smile

imperial, i saw in a another thread that you're not voting for either? you fooled the shit out of me, i thought for sure you'd go vote red team.  i was pleasantly surprised however, i too hate both of the candidates and have decided to put in a write in vote for Charles Bukowski

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

> The bomb we are talking about, is a bomb, given to some extremist group, blown up in Tel Aviv, or
> Bethlehem, etc.

> You think Iran would NOT do this ?

Very good point indeed, as there have been several good points in this thread already big_smile.

I'm afraid Iran WOULD do that. Can't prove they will, though...

Morbo: Morbo can't understand his teleprompter. He forgot how you say that letter that looks like a man with a hat.
Linda: It's a 't'. It goes "tuh".
Morbo: Hello, little man. I will destroy you!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpP7b2lUxVE

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

There were no dark ages, and in things like banking, heavy agriculture and the philosophy of law the euros didn't draw any muslim influence.  And when discussing the Ottoman developments bear in mind they stole a lot from subject Europeans as well as absorbed Arab traditions of "arts".

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

maybe we should have borrowed some ideas about banking....

and sorry for using the term "dark ages" i know its not really used by scholars anymore, i just figured thats how most people still knew it, seeing as most dont keep up with standards of contemporary history

> Justinian I wrote:
> Ouro,
Even though you were the first one to arrive at the scene who clearly pwned Einstein and showed how biased he is, you are an outright arsehole.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

> CrazyOne wrote:

> Well, we already know that the US wont win a direct war with Iran, so they wont do anything, adn as long as the US doesnt do anything, so wont Israel, since they dont have backup from US.


Redefine your understanding of a direct war, few nations in the world can hold up to a direct war with the U.S. Iran would be wiped off the face of the planet if it were a direct war.


The U.S. Can not win another occupational operation like whats going on in Iraq, the closest thing to the last Direct War the U.S. Had was Korea.

And the Israel's don't always look to the U.S. - What about the preemptive strikes on Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, ect... I doubt they asked for our permission.

United States Marine Corps
-Providing the enemy with the opportunity to die for their country since 1775-

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Why invade iran? If we destroyed its military and its oil economy that would break it.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

"There were no dark ages, and in things like banking, heavy agriculture and the philosophy of law the euros didn't draw any muslim influence.  And when discussing the Ottoman developments bear in mind they stole a lot from subject Europeans as well as absorbed Arab traditions of "arts"."

You're wrong about agriculture. Spain's fruit-agriculture was entirely stolen from the muslims. You're right about the others (although philosophy of law  might be a debatable subject). And muslims aren't automaticly Ottoman wink

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

> V.Kemp wrote:
> That's our predicament.
Any direct action would have unwanted, unavoidable consequences. We REALLY don't want this.
Any indirect actions have and continue to be uneffective. They get support elsewhere, from players who don't care if Iran gets nukes and wipes Israel off the face of the earth.
So we'll continue sitting on our hands while diplomatic efforts fail continually. But Israel's existence is on the line and everyone knows it. They won't. God bless them when the time comes.<


Let us pretend, for one paranoid moment, that Iran really has dropped a nuclear bomb on Isreal; Then what? Every country on the planet will nuke them into a dustcloud the size of Siberia, and their Russian friends (who think it hypocritical for nuclear powers to dictate on the dangers of this most terrible of WMDs) will not help them because Iran will have brought it on itself, Iran will have started it, and the allies, friends, and even some political and/or historical enemies of Isreal will finish it.
Logicalm yes?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

Imperial, the US isnt that almighty as they always think, they never fought against an enemy of caliber (iraq didnt had a well proportioned army, neither the did the balkans, and the taliban are just a buch of wankers in a pickup) but  since Iranian forces are well equipped, and well trained (atleast alot better the the iraqi)it could give for a nice fight, were i think would be shown that the US isnt that supreme in military anymore.

Hell, you couldnt even win from indians in old migs, the iranians have way better material (Sovjey latest) and are better trained (again sovjets)

I survived the Test? of 12-4-03, anyone remember that?

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

I actually hope for a conflict between US and Iran.  we already have a huge force in the adjacent country.  so that would force us to pull troops out of Iraq and allow the Iraqi Government to finally take responsibility.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

> The Yell wrote:

> Why invade iran? If we destroyed its military and its oil economy that would break it.


Here's the problem:

The moment you try to break Iran's military, Hezbollah wakes up.  Or, at the very least, whatever military officials manage to dodge the initial strikes would wake up and resort to terrorist attacks.

The results?

1: Missiles launched from Iran across the border into the Iraqi oil fields.
2: Terrorism in other places around the world.
3: Here's the biggie: An Iranian ship slips by US fleets and manages to lay some mines in the Strait of Hormuz, shutting down a big portion of oil exports.

It's the asymmetrical war we need to worry about.



Although I do agree that breaking their economy would do them in.  In fact, I think they're done in already, and we just need to sit back and watch.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

zarf Beeblebrix wrote

"Here's the biggie: An Iranian ship slips by US fleets and manages to lay some mines in the Strait of Hormuz, shutting down a big portion of oil exports."
________________________________________________

ROTFLOL hahaha thats cute you think that could actually happen wink

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

> Soth wrote:

> zarf Beeblebrix wrote

"Here's the biggie: An Iranian ship slips by US fleets and manages to lay some mines in the Strait of Hormuz, shutting down a big portion of oil exports."
________________________________________________

ROTFLOL hahaha thats cute you think that could actually happen wink



And why not?  Iran just announced they're building a series of naval bases near the strait.  They really only need one or two speedboats to get the operation going, whereas the US would need to patrol a pretty big region to stop such an attack.

But the thing is... Iran doesn't even need to succeed in order to succeed.


If they get a few mines dropped in the water (not like "close the strait," number, but "there's some mines here, but we can still get through" levels), the strait would have to be closed in order to find where the mines were, or at least find a safe pathway for ships.  That slows down shipping, prices skyrocket.

Hell, they don't even need to carry out the attack.  If Iran seriously threaten to close the strait, the very hype of the attack would probably make investors say "oh, shit, they'll do it!," and preempt the attack by buying shares.


Yes, Soth, it's a suicide mission.  But... this is Iran.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Iran VS. United States [Will it happen?]

"I actually hope for a conflict between US and Iran"

I actually hope that one day you grow up and realise how much of an imbecile you have to be to wish for any war to happen.