51 (edited by You_Fool 08-Mar-2008 22:15:01)

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

The problem with this BW, is that you (and the other two) are just applying the model as you view an European to want it and then applying that to the US, where that is plainly against what I am saying. In fact my idea is to come up with a system which is flexible enough to be changed to suit the society it is in, because you should have realised by now that I am a great believer in allowing a community to decide its own fate, possibly even above individual freedoms if the society truly believes that is the way for things to go.

In fact I have left room for a tax rebate for people who went and funded their own healthcare or education; as it would be taking pressure off the social system.

The only thing socialist about me, BW, is that I believe that we as a community should look after each other, because it is only by working together we gain anything positive. Sure you have some people who lead and some people who do the grunt work, but without the other neither would be any use, thus it is important to ensure the welfare of all citizens.



Oh and BW as an extra, I now have less faith in you after reading your link. The Fair Tax system is pretty much what I suggested with a few modifications, ie a low flat tax on income above the poverty line to reduce the inflationary pressure of a sales tax and a sliding scale on different products depending on what they were; ie bread, milk etc would have no or little sales tax whilst cigarettes and plasma tv's would have more. How can you bag my system then say that the same system is best? You fail BW, fail miserably!

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

I do not agree w/any graduated tax system.
Any perceived tax payments, for those who are perceived to earn or be worth more, is not fair.
As soon as you talk about rich having to pay more because they could is wrong.
Govt should not be in the business of deciding who deserves more or less.  This goes for services or taxation.

Govt. is wasteful and not to be trusted with ones freedom of liberty.

Yours is nothing like the fair tax system.  Fair tax is only on final sales, not on all goods sold.  Its doesnt have a penalty tax for the rich to pay.  Im sure you would not support a prebate check to the multi-Millionaires as the Fair Tax would.  ALL citizens would receive a prebate check....ALL.  It eliminates all Income, Corporate, Estate, Capital Gains.....taxes.  ALL of them.

This is far from your system.

It also says nothing about socialization/Govt maintenance of Education and Medical services.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

"/me wonders if Dragon wants Stalin, Hitler or Mao to run his Govt."
Sigh
Such stupidity:)

You know how it works in Sweden for example? That's how I want it to work (with a little modification ofc since it's not prefect). And I doubt we have anyone with those names even living here;)

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
------
4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

BW: NO I don't have a prebate, i just have no tax on x% on income and on essential goods and services.

I have a graduated tax on more luxury items, there is nothing to say that the rich must buy the most expensive thing, nor do they need to buy lots of them. They could in fact live like the rest of society and pay as little tax as everyone else. It is merely those who wish to spend excessive amounts of money that will have to pay more tax. I also believe that the government should not be deciding who gets more or less, but in fact ensuring that all citizens get an equal access to services that matter, health care, education and social security (albeit at a much lower level than is currently in most nations.)

IN any event, the fair tax is the same, albeit more simplified, though it will have a much higher inflationary pressure mechanism, given it will increase prices appox 23%, whilst giving people 23% more money to spend, which they will. Purchasing power will be the same, but prices will increase, increasing inflation.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

again....its not fair.  You are penalizing a person or corp because YOU perceive them to be "Rich."
You are either a free society or you are not.

Everyone is equal.  Period.  No matter their color, creed, religion, sex, sexual orientation, or INCOME Level, or NET WORTH.

Yet, you wish to let some elected official decide who should pay more.......rich/high net worth pay more than anyone in taxes anyway.  They pay more because they spend more, they earn more.  Isnt that enough ??  No, you want to place a higher % or an entirely different tax on them.....because....YOU think they have to much.

Its wrong.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

56 (edited by Freelancer 09-Mar-2008 16:52:56)

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

"Does the State school charge a tuition?  Or is it a Govt. Funded School ??

You didnt explain the Choice in Health care.


The US has "State" schools.  What they are is for state resident students, that pay a lower tuition.   In the US, there are many low income grants and low interest and payment deferred loans.  The choice is limited to qualifying for that school.  There are many philanthropic as well as school offered scholarships.
Again, US Schools are only limited to qualifying for admission.  After that, you can go anywhere you want, because the system is set up for anyone to go anywhere.

I dont want this free choice to change.

Sounds like in Portugal, you can afford a private school, or you go to the state run school.  Hardly a choice....unless you have money."

1- "Hardly a choice....unless you have money"

Lol it's really funny do you know? Hardly choice? well it is exactly like the system you are trying to defend, if the government cannot provide either education or health care, then a citizen has to buy it, know if they have no money they cannot do it. So no choice too

2- "Does the State school charge a tuition?  Or is it a Govt. Funded School"

Depends, there are 3 types of schools in Portugal



A- Public school - The school must accepts anyone who apply's to it if they live in the area. (offcurse there is a limit number of students do to for example not enough classrooms etc) there are no tuition, students only have to buy books, pens pencil etc...

B- Public/Private school - This school has a private administration but the state pays them for each student (it also limits the number of the students that this school can have) The school only accepts the students they want, they can also ask for a small fee, no more than 100

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

BW: actually no, i am choosing to put a higher tax on high end items so I can have no tax on low end items, items everyone will buy. Food stuffs, essential items should be tax free, but expensive cars, luxury yachts and the such like can and should have taxes. Rich people still eat don't they?

You are putting concepts in my mouth that are not there. My inequality is in the level of nessessity of the item being taxed, not of the person buying the item. The 'rich' are not forced to buy the taxed items, no one is forced to buy any item.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Food stuffs are tax free in the US.  Why should there be a tax on food ?  They tax food in your country ?

"Expensive Cars" "Luxury Yachts"  ROFL....ok, so what is NOT a luxury car.  What vessel is considered to be EXEMPT from the "Luxury Yacht" status.
ENVY....ENVY....ENVY.....  christ.

Who is it that will Categorize "Expensive Cars" and "Luxury yachts" ??


Dont you get it ?   Just put a sales tax on it.  You wish to penalize the "Expensive Car" and "Luxury Yacht" Industry.  You are not penalizing the Consumer of these Items, You are Penalizing the Industry....those that work in these areas.

Dont you get it ??

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Im just following up.....

My socialist brothers just left after the "Dont you get it" post.

No further comments ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

i made one back then, then my computer crashed and i lost it... then i couldn't be bothered arguing with you, cause it is worse than winning the special olympics with all your limbs in tact..

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

It's how you phrase it. Instead of saying you were going to raise the tax on luxury goods you could have said you would alleviate the tax for essentials.

BW would probably have agreed with you then lol.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

yeah, i am taking his fair tax and then lowering the tax on essential goods!

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

"BW: actually no, i am choosing to put a higher tax on high end items so I can have no tax on low end items, items everyone will buy."

CHRIST !!!!  I understand what you are saying.

You are going to empower the all mighty GOVT. to decide what is a luxury....and what is not.

Its simple.  Forget about hiring a new Govt. Weanie to figure out your complicated system, and have a flat tax.  Give a Prebate to cover the cost of taxes on essentials, and then the Glutton and the Luxury spenders will have ZERO alternatives that the IDIOT Govt. Weanie left off the list.....

Everyone wants the Govt. to run everything for them......Except when it comes to Securing ones country, then the Govt. it corrupt and dirty.

Go figure.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Black Wing, a lot of countries do that. A different tax on diferent categories of products is only right. A flat-tax is highly tymocratic and thus undemocratic. A lot of countries (all of the European Union countries and a lot more too, probably) use this system and it works really well wink

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

If it is a system of Europe, that is truly sucks......socialist choking of the system.

Again, you want a Govt. Weanie to decide your life and what is to be taxed and how it is to be taxed.
and another Govt. weanie to decide how it should be distributed.... Fairly ??  ROFL.  All the while, you have to pay and support these boneheads making all these important decisions.....for you.

Because, you cant make those decisions for yourself ??

Does anyone understand the concept of Freedom anymore ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

@BW

Everything isn't about money. It isn't. On economic questions !in my country! I'm for economic freedom in social issues(which are much more important to me then economic ones) I'm also for freedom. So you could call me a libertarian.

"Does anyone understand the concept of Freedom anymore ?"

Conservatives don't understand the concept of social freedom. You'd rather let the government control your personal lives listen to your calls etc.
Now your probably going to say "what about the terrorists!!!" who cares about them 9/11 killed 3000 people OMG!!! Big deal cigarettes kill 465 000 people each year. "But the illeagals are flooding over our borders" more cheap labour for you:).
"the gays are parading on the streets!!!" who cares, you don't have to watch or go there, nobodys forcing you.

As you can see you let the government control your lives as much as social democrats.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

BW, redistribution of wealth is necessairy for your economy. In fact, it might be one of the reasons america's economy is falling apart atm.

I'd like to refer to the Wallstreet crash of '29. What happened over the years before is that a tremendous industrial economy had develloped, but at the same time gradually became dependent on a smaller group. So, in '29, the there was an overproduction for a far too small group. Industrial concerns lowered their prices and only aggravated the situation with it. The whole lot collapsed and shook the world. This is why Keynesian projects like the Hoover Dam worked so well..
A flattaks only benefits the wealthy and the same process starts over again. The group of consumers will become smaller and the whole thing will happen again (but on a lesser scale, I'm sure).

And that's has nothing to do with freedom, only with money. I think it's only common sense that someone who buys a Rolls Royce or Bussiness class should pay more taxes then on bread, no?
If you think that's a limitation of freedom, you got it wrong lad. Poverty is, not scaled taxes..

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

@ Paul V

Yes, it IS about money, or else the GOVT. wouldnt need to take it from you, and the Govt. weanie would not need a paycheck.
A Libertarian doesnt support Socialized medicine, and socialized Education.  So you are FAR from a libertarian.

Yes, the Govt. can data mine all they want.  They cant use the info against me, because I have nothing to hide.

as to the rest...... I think you lost your focus.


@ Wild F

"redistribution of wealth is necessary for your economy. In fact, it might be one of the reasons America's economy is falling apart atm."

Classic.  Wow.  What can one possibly respond to that.

You are dangerous.  Your beliefs are dangerous.  Your lack of knowledge in Economics and Finance are flawed.

When you support Keynesian theory as an economic savior.......

What else can I say.
Buy a rolls at 8% sales tax, and thats a hefty tax bill.  Isnt that enough ?
Business class ticket...ROFL...  Yea....better tax those EVIL Business tax passengers.

In my country, we dont tax bread, or any other food stuffs.  Of course there is a built in tax into any product, but lets not go there.

so we dont have that problem.



I got an Idea.

How about we just enlist the Govt. to write a law, and TAKE anyone's NW above X amount.

I will let you Socialists define X.

Lets get directly to the matter....>ERRRRRRrrrrrrr

* * * * *

Wild Flower.

How about this novel thought.  Raise the tax on Rolls Dealers, and tax heavily the business class seats. 
What about those that cater to these industries ??  You artificially inflate a price, and you decrease the demand.

I said this earlier.  All you do is penalize the people in that industry, not the consumer of an industries product.

Dont you leftists get that ?  of course not.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

69 (edited by Wild Flower Soul 19-Mar-2008 07:21:22)

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Oi BW, I do know quite something about economics. Not on an university level, but I had it for 4 years, and I had extensive economical history just a few months ago.

"When you support Keynesian theory as an economic savior......."

It did save the world economy after the crash og '29. That's a historical fact..

All I'm saying is that scaled taxes on products is a fine working system to keep everyone on board on the economy train. If you start losing people who actively take a part in the consumation of goods, your economy is in trouble. You can't rely on a smaller group that gets richer. That leads to overproduction and an economical fallback. This is exactly what happened in '29, those are historical facts wink

Now scaled taxes on the consumation of products is a system that's spread all over Europe, and does really well. Countries like Sweden to countries like Greece and Ireland have it. It proves to be an efficient system. While those countries have a complete different economical structure, it seems to benefit them all.
-Sweden has a very strong economy with strong redistribution of health. At the same time, it has one of the most extended social security networks in the world.
-Ireland has the system too, and it was the best developping country in Europe for the last twenty years. So, it doesn't really seem to stop economic growth.
-Greece is a more reliant and agricultural economy. A large part of the greeks lives of agriculture and tourism, yet a scaled taxsystem works good here too.

"You artificially inflate a price, and you decrease the demand."

You forget one thing BW, and that's a term in economy called "price elasticity". Certain goods have a demand that changes heavily when their price changes. Other products, usually basic stuff or luxuary products are inelastic, and whatever the price is for those things, the amount of buyers are the same.
Those luxuary products' demands wont lower, not even with a higher tax, so you don't decrease the demand. Leftists do understand wink

"How about we just enlist the Govt. to write a law, and TAKE anyone's NW above X amount."

Installing a maximum wage seems great to me smile I don't mind taking a few millions of people's incomes like Beyonc

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Keynesian theory of Govt. spending to pull out of a deep Depression is possible.  Its also a model that has never been duplicated.  Deep depression is highly unlikely again.

1. The model also coincided w/the needed infrastructure build up.  Hoover dam and the highway system were absolutely needed.

2.  Govt. projects take to long to impact the economy.  Its not an immediate effect, and the impact of such Govt. spending on the economy is never truly measured.

Did it save the US Economy in 29 ?

Maybe.  The Pieces for a Depression post WW1 were in place.
The irrational speculative stock buying was rampant.
The Dust bowl.
Other international factors lead to the great Depression.

The Infrastructure build up was needed, and it helped bail out the economy.


Scaled taxes.... you know my view.

But, you try to defend your position w/a line like this,
you write:

"Other products, usually basic stuff or luxury products are inelastic"

Basic necessities are inelastic.  You need milk and bread and eggs.  This is inelastic.
LUXARY Items are ELASTIC.  You dont need that Yacht if the price is to high....you pass on that Yacht or that Rolls.  You purchase a used vessel, or a Town Car instead.

So,  Basic is inelastic.  Luxury is VERY Elastic.
Look into the effects of Pres. Clintons "Luxury tax" on just such a product.  Yachts.    The effect of the tax on a VERY ELASTIC Item.  A luxury item:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E0CE7D9143AF934A35751C0A964958260

you write:  "Leftists do understand."   ROFL......  ummm, no you dont.  big_smile

Installing a Maximum wage seems great to you ?!?!?!

Who are you ?? 

Who is anyone to ** DICTATE ** what level of anything anyone can have or cannot have ??

Who are you ??



Its class envy.  Its watching what one has, or doesnt have, and thinking you can solve it all.

Its simple.  Take from the one that has, and give it to the one that doesnt have......After all, I am the Govt.
And if you dont, we will march you off to........

Generalize about Leftists ??   hehe.  Think not.


BTW, you need more education.....start w/Elasticity first.
Then move on the the REAL Cause and effect of the Great Depression.
After that, study Professor Laffer.  Research some of his writings.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Max wage? I thought we're trying to keep smart people from leaving the country.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

72 (edited by Wild Flower Soul 19-Mar-2008 18:56:17)

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

"Keynesian theory of Govt. spending to pull out of a deep Depression is possible.  Its also a model that has never been duplicated.  Deep depression is highly unlikely again."

It was duplicated, only not within your boundaries. All over Europe, Keynesian projects were started (funny enough Germany's industrialisation in the '30s is one of them)

"Did it save the US Economy in 29 ?

Maybe.  The Pieces for a Depression post WW1 were in place.
The irrational speculative stock buying was rampant.
The Dust bowl.
Other international factors lead to the great Depression.

The Infrastructure build up was needed, and it helped bail out the economy."

Of course, a megaproject has to have a reason. It would be rather silly to start a project without the need for it.

"But, you try to defend your position w/a line like this,
you write:

"Other products, usually basic stuff or luxury products are inelastic"
Basic necessities are inelastic.  You need milk and bread and eggs.  This is inelastic.
LUXARY Items are ELASTIC.  You dont need that Yacht if the price is to high....you pass on that Yacht or that Rolls.  You purchase a used vessel, or a Town Car instead.
So,  Basic is inelastic.  Luxury is VERY Elastic.
Look into the effects of Pres. Clintons "Luxury tax" on just such a product.  Yachts.    The effect of the tax on a VERY ELASTIC Item.  A luxury item:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

73 (edited by Black_Wing 19-Mar-2008 20:06:59)

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Wild F...

"Luxury articles are inelastic, as they have a status to it. The class of people that buys those things don't care for the price of it..."

First off, you are completely wrong.  Luxury Items are the most Elastic.
2nd, do not state as fact your assumption about the so called "Rich."  .... at least say "In my Opinion."  At least its your opinion, no matter how incorrect your opinion is.

Because you are absolutely incorrect.

WW1
the elimination of the German Economy by reparations.
Leveraged stock buying.
the Dust bowl.

Many causes for the Great Depression.   Called GREAT because it was Global.

ROFL...not just because of a hand full of Rich...hehe.

Look you are a student.  You have been absorbed into the collective.  Your mind has become one w/the Leftist Elite of Academia.  When you enter the real world, and see how it is really done........you might change.

My position is this.  Academia, protected by their arcane need to Tenure, has brought into their fold, the bottom of the pool.  The modern day Uni Professor is for the most part, a socialist, and one that has failed in the real world, so they seak the protection of "Tenure."  After tenure, hell they can say what they want, all they want.

BTW.  Im a double major, History (Focus on the Economic History) and Economics.   I had the great pleasure of a w/e Seminar class w/ Prof. Laffer....the high light of my educational experience.  He has a PROFOUND impact on my view of the modern business world.

I have owned my own business for 15 years now.

I know exactly what Im talking about.

I understand your worries for the world, but wow.... think about what you are writing.  Is it really fair ??  ....

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

So you claim I'm indoctrinated.. Well then, there's nothing left to say.

And if you're an historian, then I'm sad that you just don't interpret the theory I explained about the Great Depression (we use a different name in my language, so it's hardly my fault I misinterpreted it). I thought the main part of our job was to interpret things, look at the sources and then reply structurally with evidence, rather then just wiping it off the table.
What I explained was an underlaying mechanism, like the kondratieff waves are, more or less.

About the elasticity or inelasticity of products: please look up the selling records of Rolls Royce wink
Another example, a tad more exuberant, is things like an artpiece. People (the ones who can afford it) pay for it no matter what the cost is.
Products with a real symbol of status are inelastic. No doubt about it..

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: Individuality, Socialism and you

Rolls Royce ?  Fine company. 

Dont they take the orders first, then make the vehicle ?  Arent they also limited to the number of vehicles they make a year ??
Just off the top of my head.

Did you read the article on Luxury taxes placed on Yachts ?

Art, Home ownership.  They have no elasticity at all.  There is only one home you will live in.  There is only one piece of art.  Doesnt fall under the elasticity rule.  One buyer, one seller.


On indocrtination  ??  I just think you have limited life experience.  3 years of uni vs. what I have to offer.

Its really logical.  Your view of ceilings and floors and extra taxes....and rich and poor.....its noble, but not reasonable.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.