Topic: What is Libertarianism?

All I know is it means small government with little economic intervention.

Some Libertarians believe in natural rights, others just think small government and little economic intervention makes things more efficient and that's desirable.

That's what I know about it. Where am I wrong and what am I missing?

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Well i am a libertarian but i dont know much about my own belief system big_smile Libertarians beleive like a conservative when it comes to the economy. Less government = more companies profits. Government can never hold a company because it leads to problems. just like we saw with fannie and freddie although the government didn't hold that company it was known that they would be bailed out if something went wrong. This allowed them to do all kinds of risky loans which basically caused our credit crunch. I believe that this example and other examples like this improve my point. And government is never efficient so it should be kept to a minimum. The government has ever increasing budgets and no reason to spend it efficiently. Government tends to waste a lot of money in their public works projects.

In social issues people should have more freedom again. This means i do support abortion, gay marriage, and basically anytime government tries to interfere in my life. It really is not the government's job to tell us what is moral and what is not. Their job is to protect our liberties. I will make my own judgements on what is moral. Ofcourse i cannot go rob the grocery store because i think it is "moral" because i am hurting another individual who owns the grocery store. This is when government must act in the form of police officers and such.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

What about laws to enforce protection of children from exploitation, anti-pollution laws and corporate reporting laws?

Would those generally be considered unacceptable forms of government interference with Libertarian ideology?

Re: What is Libertarianism?

To a reasonable extent.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: What is Libertarianism?

libertarians belief in free market & smoking pot

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: What is Libertarianism?

I don't condone the use of Wikipedia as a sole reference, but its article on libertarianism is fairly good. 

What precisely consitutes the libertarian set of principles is a contentious issue, but essentially, a libertarian prioritises personal freedom above all else.  Libertarian is the antonym of authoritarian, after all!  But libertarianism covers a broad spectrum, from left to right of the political system. 

Please note also, that the term "liberal" in bygone days was used to mean something like libertarianism, but particularly in the recent past, the definition of liberal has changed to mean different things to different people, with the Europeans sticking more closely to the original definition than say the Americans.

To those who understand I extend my hand; To the doubtful I demand to take me as I am.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Esa about covered it!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Libertarians are (in the US anyways) near anarchists. They oppose all government programs except for a small military. This means no CIA no FBI and very very very relaxed laws that don't limit people (like legalizing pot) etc . . .

Rehabilitated IC developer

Re: What is Libertarianism?

"n social issues people should have more freedom again. This means i do support abortion, gay marriage, and basically anytime government tries to interfere in my life. It really is not the government's job to tell us what is moral and what is not. Their job is to protect our liberties. I will make my own judgements on what is moral. Ofcourse i cannot go rob the grocery store because i think it is "moral" because i am hurting another individual who owns the grocery store. This is when government must act in the form of police officers and such."

this is pretty good; would just like to clarify that Libertarians do not necessarily support abortion. we believe its the government's job to protect our liberties; and some believe that includes protecting the fetus's liberties and some would think the fetus shouldnt get liberties.

10 (edited by avogadro 16-Oct-2008 17:40:34)

Re: What is Libertarianism?

> A10 wrote:

> Libertarians are (in the US anyways) near anarchists. They oppose all government programs except for a small military. This means no CIA no FBI and very very very relaxed laws that don't limit people (like legalizing pot) etc . . .

well, we dont support babysitter laws. where the government acts like babysitters such as telling us we have to wear a helmet while riding a motorcycle or telling us what drugs we can and cannot use or telling us that we have to wear a seat belt.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

I think things have developed here nicely. The idea isn't focused around one side of abortion or gay marriage or a gimped national defense.

The focus is on government involvement in areas like helmet laws (<==big biker/biker enthusiast) or monstrous FDA laws that cost hundreds of thousands of lives each year and limit things like the smoking of pot. A plant that naturally grows all over and has been (and still is) smoked by peoples the world over. It's less harmful than tobacco or alcohol yet it's illegal. Why? The type of bullshit government that libertarians are against. Pot's illegalization is an example of laws based on corporate profits--the type of thing that's unjust and harmful to the American people. Government should know its place, and stay out of many areas where it currently uses tons of tax dollars to regulate. And their regulations cost billions more dollars and lives every year. When laws cost us freedom, justice, money, and lives, those laws REALLY should have been revaluated long ago.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: What is Libertarianism?

actually pot has more tar in it than tobacco but it is only mentaly addictive(very weakly) and i've never heard of a person OD-ing on pot but I have heard of people drinking themselves to death or mistaking ethanol for methanol and I've heard of a person dieing of nicotine poisoning. I also think swedish snus should be legalized everywhere because it could substitute cigarettes as the main tobacco product. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snus

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Snus? Is that like chew? 'Cause chew gives maaaaad gum cancer and tooth decay.  [reads article] Bastards need to get those carginogens lower! Like 2% of chew carcinogens is too much. Get a big tumor in your mouth... not secksi.

Pot does not cause cancer, and pot smokers tend to smoke a lot less than cig smokers smoke cigs, so the tar damage to the lungs is generally far less with pot than cigs.  Cancer's the big scare anyway!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: What is Libertarianism?

As I consider myself a Libertarian, I give my view.

I feel governments should exist only to protect individuals from other individuals and groups, and groups from other individuals or groups.

They should NOT meddle in protecting people from themselves. They should NOT enforce morality at any time it does not involve the protection function mentioned above.

An example is the seatbelt/helmet laws. They are primarily an attempt by busybodies to force people to protect themselves. The argument for those laws generally is: All those people who choose to go unprotected raise the costs of insurance and medical treatment for the rest of us. (sounds like protecting one group from another, sorta) But that is defeated by the idea we could just add a few more questions to their applications. (we DO have smoker and non-smoker rates, why not seatbelt/helmet user rates and non-user rates?) The free market system could take care of it without legislation. The MOST the government should do here is educate people on their options, and the various results of em.

Next, the laws against theft and robbery are good and a useful function of governments. They protect individuals from others. (actually, they dont protect. They offer some deterrent , true, but mainly offer redress after the fact)

The various laws against sodomy, incest, prostitution, etc. ANY act involving two or more CONSENTING adults should be beyond the reach of any government. However, any such act involving force or coersion is to be addressed by governments.

And so on.

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

hummy's way more sober than I am. Thank you hummy, that was concise.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: What is Libertarianism?

That's a strict defintion of libertarianism, hummy.  I too, define as a libertarianist, but do not take it to that level.  I mean, I largely agree, but I think we can all see the benefits of laws against incest and regulating the use of seatbelts and crash helmets.   

On the topics of prostitution and cannabis, I side with the Dutchies.  On the use of hard drugs - cocaine, heroin etc... - my views are less well formed as I do not know enough of the medical science to make a fully informed opinion.   But my overall view of these drugs is largely negative.

But, on the topics of national health care, education and financial regulation, I position myself to the left, rather than to the right.  In a way, my views on those topics may fall under egalitariansim.

To those who understand I extend my hand; To the doubtful I demand to take me as I am.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Yes, it is a strict definition.  I thot that was what we sought?

I would suggest, that you can identify yourself as being of any party and view, and still have minor disagreements with the party views. Any party (Republican, Democratic or Libertarian) contains a wide spectrum of views. But, Lateralis, based on the views you posted, I see you as a main-stream democrat, or an ultra-liberal republican. (NO offense meant. I am just posting my opinions.)

That is a response to your first sentence. (Mainly) I will address the rest in following posts.

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

"I mean, I largely agree, but I think we can all see the benefits of laws against incest and regulating the use of seatbelts and crash helmets.  "

First, I address the bit on seatbelts and helmets, and other safety devices. Not all of us see those benefits. If the government wishes to provide info on the benefits (and detriments) of safety items usage, I say go for it. Then people can make an informed choice. If the government wishes to FORCE the usage of the items on people, the government is wrong. People making an informed CHOICE, is the way to go. Just have insurance companies use ck boxes, and adjust rates accordingly: smoke, dont smoke, use seatbelt, dont use seatbelt. Solves the whole problem, without gov intervention and laws. (But, I say this where the chooser is an adult, and mentally competent.)

Laws for children and the mentally incompetent, those who cannot really make an informed decision, are ok.

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

> hummy wrote:

> Yes, it is a strict definition.  I thot that was what we sought?

I would suggest, that you can identify yourself as being of any party and view, and still have minor disagreements with the party views. Any party (Republican, Democratic or Libertarian) contains a wide spectrum of views. But, Lateralis, based on the views you posted, I see you as a main-stream democrat, or an ultra-liberal republican. (NO offense meant. I am just posting my opinions.)

That is a response to your first sentence. (Mainly) I will address the rest in following posts.


well, we are talking about the ideology, not the political party. while the democratic party may support the same things. he may be a libertarian in ideology. 

basically he's for social and economic liberties. just because he thinks that acouple things are so bad, that the government shouldnt give them the option to do it, doesnt mean he isnt on some lvl a libertarian.

20 (edited by Gwynedd 19-Oct-2008 01:16:29)

Re: What is Libertarianism?

as for laws against incent; i would say that even a strict libertarian could be for government outlawing incest. because its protection of the possible life that could come from such an act, which chances are would be pretty [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] up.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

I think we can all see the benefits of laws against incest and regulating the use of seatbelts and crash helmets.   

Sorry. We dont all see the benefits of laws against incest. I DO see the benefits of outlawing sexual child abuse, or the sexual abuse of those not mentally competent.  I dont see the benefits of laws preventing sexual relations between consenting, mentally competent adults.

I see no problem with consenting (mentally competent) adults committing incest. If you want to have sexual relations with your cousin or sibling (or any other fam member) who willingly agrees (no force or coersion) who cares? and why? Dont give me that tired old genetics argument. There are ways to prevent conception, and birth defects are occurring in similar  percentages in incestous relations and random relations. And, how do we breed animals for desired traits?

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

Sorry. I have touched on some touchy topics. I apologize for that.

I dont engage in incest, nor do I promote it. I do see that it should be allowed between CONSENTING adults. An, not outlawed outa hand.

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

Re: What is Libertarianism?

well, we are talking about the ideology, not the political party. while the democratic party may support the same things. he may be a libertarian in ideology. 

basically he's for social and economic liberties. just because he thinks that acouple things are so bad, that the government shouldnt give them the option to do it, doesnt mean he isnt on some lvl a libertarian.

Eh, as I said, there are wide spectrums of views in each party.  I was not condemning him, just giving myy take/opinion. I meant no offense.

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

24 (edited by Gwynedd 19-Oct-2008 01:16:45)

Re: What is Libertarianism?

> avogadro wrote:

> as for laws against incent; i would say that even a strict libertarian could be for government outlawing incest. because its protection of the possible life that could come from such an act, which chances are would be pretty [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] up.

Eh, I addressed that

75% of all players in IC have hemorroids,

the other 25% are perfect assholes.

25 (edited by Gwynedd 19-Oct-2008 01:16:54)

Re: What is Libertarianism?

> hummy wrote:

> > avogadro wrote:

> as for laws against incent; i would say that even a strict libertarian could be for government outlawing incest. because its protection of the possible life that could come from such an act, which chances are would be pretty [The fmods owned me before I even knew it!] up.

Eh, I addressed that


yeah, you addressed it by comparing us to animals and if its ok to do to animals, its ok to do to humans...