Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

USA are the enforcers of freedom, of course they would accept Scotland as an independent nation. Why wouldn't the USA respect the basic human right of self determination? I mean, the United States have an exemplary human rights record. From their conduct, it is easy to see that they are a country that respects the rights of others and embraces equality.

More importantly, would the USA recognise Antarctica as Australian territory, because they form parts of our core.

Destiny is only for those too own to make their fate weak.

~ Geese

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

I'm confused; was that sarcasm?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

28 (edited by Grizzly 11-Mar-2008 00:13:23)

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

> [TI] Sitting Duck wrote:

> The Scottish independence movement is based solely on bigoted resentment of the English and an inferiority complex.


Utter bollocks, at least our government does something useful, like abolishing a

Your Friendly Neighbourhood Bear

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

"However Hez, the English are currently subsiding us Scots to the tune of about

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

from previous page:

Would the US support an independent New Zealand?

.... isnt NZ already independent?

The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

New Zealand is indeed independent, has been for decades

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

"I have seen this said many times but why would independence mean that Scotland's economy would be boosted by this fact?"

Well for a start the English companies would stop nicking our oil.

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

"Utter bollocks, at least our government does something useful, like abolishing a

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

...Just to clarify my position, I really don't care if Scotland were to be independent or not. It doesn't bother me, and if that is what the Scottish people want then good luck to them. However, it really irritates me when I see people writing unsubstantiated tripe about independence fueling an economic upturn, nonsense about English dominance of the UK and how when Scotland is independent every day will be sunny, cancer will be cured and the world will be at peace.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

the capital of England is  the capital of the UK
the Queen of England is the Queen of the UK
the language spoken is English (not British) [incidently Welsh is banned in the UK parliament]
England makes up 83% of the UK population
Parliament is in England
England is the richest area
the national anthem is the same as the English national anthem
half the countries in the world know britain as England, I wonder why? same reason why the USSR was always referred to as 'Russia'? in Rngland many people there mix up England and Britain. Great Britain of course is only 69years older than the USA, many countries historically will have been used solely to England & when British representatives went around the world, largely they would be Englishmen & referring to England  a lot. In WW2 a famous propaganda song said 'there will always be an England' & the accompanying propaganda film featured a map of Britain with ENGLAND written on it.

England has in the past voted for the flooding of welsh valleys to supply England with water, despite nearly all 40MPs from Wales voting against- with 500MPs- England won- incidently this is cited as the source of modern welsh nationalism.


while the english are right to be angry about Scots & welsh voting on solely English issues, politicians wont give England a parliament- in their minds Britain= England, & the British parliament is the English parliament - crazy no?

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

The capital of England is the capital of the UK ==> London is the largest most internationally prominent city in the UK, naturally it is the capital

The queen of England is the queen of the UK ==> Similarly the queen of Wales is the queen of the UK, the queen of Scotland is the queen of the UK, the queen of N.Ireland is the queen of the UK and the queen of Pakistan is the queen of the UK

The official language is English, not British ==> That would be because "British" isn't a language. It is called English historically and it would be a bit ridiculous to change the name of the language. I also don't really see the correlation between nomenclature and things like economic performance, quality of life and any other issues Scottish independence might claim to improve. If Scotland became independent would they stop speaking English up there? I highly doubt it, so if the fact that the spoken language of most of the UK and of the UK legal system is English is an indicator of English dominance then would that mean England still dominated Scotland after independence? Of course that would be ridiculous, but is the natural extension of your argument, so surely that makes your argument ridiculous? Of course Welsh is banned in the UK parliament, what would be the point in even speaking in welsh if no one else there understood you? The welsh language is hardly suppressed though, just drive through Wales, it is on every single road sign.

England makes up 83% of the UK population ===> True, but because of the utter lack of English nationalism I don't think it is really relevant. For example, MPs from Cumbria won't automatically vote for what is best for Cornwall in the same way an MP from Stirling would vote in solidarity for what is best for Inverness. There is no block of English voting the same way there is a block of Scottish and Welsh voting.

Parliament is in England ==> Yes, but London is the biggest most internationally prominent city in the UK, so it is natural for it to be the capital of the UK. It would be a ridiculous waste to have any kind of parliamentary rotation between London, Cardiff, Edinburgh and Belfast. MPs already claim ridiculous expenses for second homes in London nevermind if they had to have ones in Cardiff, Edinburgh  and Belfast too plus travelling expenses. Also, I would be highly skeptical to the suggestion that the location of parliament affects the decisions it makes, in which case, what difference does it make where parliament is?

England is the richest area ==> In which case, why would Scotland want to split with it? Surely it should be the other way around? =/

The national anthem is the same as the England national anthem ==> Officially England doesn't actually have a national anthem, God Save the Queen is the anthem of the UK so is often used as the English anthem at sporting events etc. where England is represented as opposed to the UK, it is not that the English anthem is forced on the rest of the UK, it's that the rest of the UK for some reason chose their own anthem over the UK anthem. Personally I believe we should have a new national anthem. I don't believe in God and I oppose the existence of the monarchy, so really I feel a bit unrepresented by "God Save the Queen".

Yes the UK is often referred to as England, but you have just committed the same crime yourself by saying Britain instead of the UK. Britain is generally short for Great Britain which is the Island comprised of England, Wales and Scotland, which of course excludes N.Ireland. The only other thing it could be short for is the British Isles which includes Eire, so can't possibly be correct. How can we expect outsiders to get the naming correct when we (including you) can't ourselves? But if the rest of the world all knew the distinctions between Britain, British Isles, the UK and the names of the constituent countries then would it really make a difference to the wealth or way of life in Scotland? Is it a valid reason for independence?

One Welsh valley was flooded in the 1960's to provide water for Liverpool, the English parliament did not vote for this, the parliament of the UK did, how did Scottish and N.Irish MPs vote on this issue? Because Wales and Liverpool were and still are part of the same country (the UK) there was no logical claim from the Welsh that a Welsh valley should not be flooded because the beneficiaries would be English. Obviously, at all costs people's homes should be protected but if that valley was the most suitable site then good that it was used. Would there be the same uproar if a valley in Yorkshire was used to provide water for Lancashire, or a more suitable example from Glamorgan to Gwent? Since Yorkshire and Lancashire, Glamorgan and Gwent are in the same country then no, of course not. The valley of Tryweryn is in the same country as Liverpool, therefore there should have been no uproar. If Wales didn't like being part of the UK, it should have said before it had to make a sacrifice for the greater cause. You cannot enjoy the benefits of being part of something and then throw your toys out of the pram when you are made to contribute yourself. Although it failed, the whole thing was a good example of what I was saying before though about the enhanced power of Wales and Scotland in Westminster because of the nationalist feeling and block voting which does not happen with English issues.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

well as the largest city in the largest country IT IS GOING to be the capital of the UK- but its a sign of English dominance.
aha but the Queen has never been known as the Queen of Wales, prior to the UK it was always the King (or Queen) of England. dont know where pakistan comes in to this.

the fact that they speak english is a sign of English dominance. English is the Main language in Wales, Scotland & N.Ireland too. while yes Ireland speaks English & have been independent for decades it is the result of English dominance & cultural genocide that gaelic is a minority language.

In wales we had to fight to get those signs up in Welsh & even then ull still find many a sign with welsh conviently absent- heck much of this fighting is against our own anti-welsh pro British diehards. as welsh is an official language in wales the police are required to paint 'Heddlu' on their vehicle- but a certain high ranking officer (when confronted with the fact that police support vans drove round with only Police written on it) decided to remove Police from the side of the vans- such that he hated the Welsh language. but this is a side issue- back to the topic.

Wales & Scotland have never voted for a conservative goverment in living memory (or something like that) yet between 1979-1997 we endured successive conservative governments.

the location of a parliament is symbolic- it is in the richest & most populous area & curiously this is the area that has most benefited from govt policy over the years- a curious coincidence no?

many in Scotland think they are getting a raw deal- & they are entitled to think that

I personally think 'Land of hope & glory' is a much better anthem for England. GTSQ is too royalist & is the British anthem.

northern irish ppl often refer to themselves as British- or atleast in the old days- thats how incorrect terms get thrown around a lot, yes Im guilty as charged.

if all the world knew about wales & scotland etc maybe these areas would get more trade etc

it was a conservative government bill so i assume conservatives in scotland followed London & voted for it. having googled it all i know is 35 out of 36 welsh MPs voted against it. with 1 MP not voting. funny how the conservatives hadnt been elected by the ppl of wales.

trywern is not in the same country as Liverpool. Liverpool is in the constituent country of England while Tryweryn being in the constituent country of England. the people of Wales said no but the nature of the UK shows that the majority rules. one must remember that even until recently Wales has been staunchly pro-British be it the large population from England & the 700years of integration with England. so for Wales to say NO was a BIG thing. such a law today would not get passed of course. wales has more influence.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

U forgot to mention that the prince of wales is heir to the throne.

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

ah you mean the English prince of wales- the last true Prince of Wales died many years ago

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Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

The English Prince of Wales who is of Austrian, Danish, English, German, Russian, and Greek descent?

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

"Vampman, I don't know how many times I have to say but scottish independence would not change the ownership of the oil and gas fields. It would be illegal to just seize them"

The government could say certain countries are trespassing in Scottish territorial waters, couldn't they?  Once said companies are removed, the rigs and platforms could be given to Scottish companies liek Scottish Gas and Scottish Power.

"Oh Kent, anyone can make up statistics to support their point of view.  92% of people know that"

Homer Simpson

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

No they couldn't. It is not "countries" operating in Scottish waters, it is companies. I don't know the arrangement within which the oil companies operate whether they own the oil fields or operate them by contract but either way, it would be illegal to just kick them out, and a government just as much if not more than anybody has to remain within the constraints of the law. They also wouldn't want to do it, because if they did, what non-scottish company would ever invest in Scotland again if they run the risk of having their Scottish assets seized?

Hez, on all those points I have stated my opinion now and you have stated yours, it would just go around and around for ever if I answered you again tongue.

For me I think this discussion has come to a natural end and my mind has still not been changed in that I really don't care if Scotland or Wales became independent, but I just don't see a good reason why the Scottish or Welsh people would want it or what good it would do.

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

its not illegal SD- in the US goverments may cower in fear of corporations but over here governments have no worries about trampling all over companies if they want to.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

I am not a legal expert but I can say I am 99% certain that kicking out the likes of Shell and BP would be illegal because they will have legally binding contracts allowing them to operate the oil and gas fields. Ownership of the fields is less likely because they are at sea, and I don't know if you can privately own a piece of the sea. This is not a matter of the power of corporations, it is the power of the law and the fact that governments must operate within the law themselves. There is no way that huge companies like BP and Shell would take being kicked out lying down, there would certainly be a legal battle, which would be very expensive (and in my opnion unwinnable) for the Scottish tax payer. Further to that, it would discourage any company from ever investing in Scotland again and would sour relations with what remains of the UK, which would be independent Scotland's largest, richest, most powerful (and only direct) neighbour. So why in the world would Scotland ever want to try to kick out the oil companies? =/

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

Putin kicked out British oil companies from russia.

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

I just googled that

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2006/12/22/cnbp22.xml

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/74843342-f775-11dc-ac40-000077b07658.html

Even in Russia, with it's reputation for corruption the companies cannot just be "kicked out". Shell were bought out of a venture for

tweehonderd graden, dat is waarom ze me mr. fahrenheit noemen, ik reis aan de snelheid van het licht, ik ga een supersonische man van u maken

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

"I personally think 'Land of hope & glory' is a much better anthem for England. GTSQ is too royalist & is the British anthem"

Rule Britannia should be the national anthem.

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

> ☠ARFeh☠ wrote:

>Rule Britannia should be the national anthem.

+1

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

SittingDuck: "Seriously, can someone, anyone, anywhere explain to me where this notion that if Scotland were independent it would get more oil revenue has come from?"

It's called tax, companies pay tax, oil companies pay tax, if the waters that oil and gas is drilled from is considered to be Scottish, then Scottish government would get revenue by taxing those companies operating in their waters.

God Save the Queen!

Re: Would USA back an independent Scotland?

And would these taxes cover the

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."