101 (edited by avogadro 21-Sep-2008 16:57:24)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

> Justinian I wrote:

> > windowsME wrote:

> Acolyte - those weren't all brought up as "proofs that evolution doesn't exist"
Just as proof that science, like religion, if bent to prove a man-made point instead of used to discover truth - is just as dangerous an entity in our search for knowledge tongue>>

Umm no. Science uses empirical proof to infer conclusions. Doesn't mean it's true, but its serves a much more practical purpose in achieving our desired outcomes than does religion. Religion is pointless in doing that.

he didnt say it was just as reliable as religion, he said just as dangerous as religion. and i think what he's saying is false, because its much larger threat to our search for knowledge then religion. for example, the largest threat to the human race is nuclear war, a creation made from trying to prove a man-made point and would end all search for knowledge.

102 (edited by Justinian I 21-Sep-2008 17:56:39)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Yeah, but science is benign in its search for truth precisely because it's reliable.

Religious dude: X is true. God said so.
Scientist: No it isn't. If X was true, then the result of this experiment would be A. But it's B, and therefore X is false. Don't you see? Watch.

103

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

the difference is that religion is not talking about things that can be proven empirically.  It is on a completely different plain of thought.  religion is the answer to a problem where as science is trying to find the answer.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

reliability only comes after its known, experimentation in science, which is a huge part of science, is quite dangerous. and then even after experimentation, science is very dangerous, nuclear power being a prime example.

sure there are some religious people that are that stupid, but there are also people that believe in science that is that stupid.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Soth, science has answers, and they're supported by evidence. Religion is only supported by very weak evidence, if at all.

Avo,

Ok, I suppose that in that sense science can be dangerous. An experiment gone wrong can lead to a cost of life or equipment, or new discoveries can lead to danger when in the wrong hands.

But these discoveries lead to theories that match our experiences, and I have to say that religion just does not match our body of evidence. It actually outright contradicts it, or simply can't be tested to suggest it does.

106 (edited by avogadro 21-Sep-2008 20:11:06)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

religion isnt a history lesson, there is no need for evidence to support it. science is about the physical, religion is about the metaphysical. its like saying drawing a heart the romantic way, <3 is wrong, its not wrong, its not supposed to be a technical map of the heart. religion isnt supposed to be a technical map of our history.

107 (edited by Justinian I 21-Sep-2008 20:33:42)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Avo,

Religion makes assertions of truth, and these assertions frequently contradict our evidence or can not be tested. When taken literally, it is a history lesson, a set of laws we are commanded to live by because they were issued by a divine authority, and it requires faith to accept them as true. Art, on the other hand, is a graphical depiction that conveys an idea or feeling. Religion doesn't do that, rather it requires one to believe without adequate evidence, and subsequently commit to a list of imperatives.

Religion makes claims with a truth-value, and that is why it can be empirically criticized.

108 (edited by avogadro 21-Sep-2008 20:40:30)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Religion does convey ideas and feelings. the Bible and Quar'an is actually filled with artwork. the only truth values religions claim are metaphysical.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

So do a lot of things, but art does not necessarily have to imply a claim with truth-value. Religion asserts claims with truth value, and they are not all metaphysical. God, heaven and hell may be metaphysical, but the story of Jesus is meant to be a historical account. Miracles are also not strictly metaphysical, but a claim meant to describe the truth of real world events with divine intervention. Religion is thus subject to empirical criticism. So too are its metaphysical claims. Though the truth value of God can not be tested, someone using the empirical method can criticize it on the grounds of infinity of like theories. With that justification, why not believe that there are aliens on the moon or in the Spaghetti monster?

110

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

religion if anything supports science.  we have seen numerous opinions on this thread the outline how science and religion can coexist in the same mind.  one does not disprove the other.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Soth,

Even I said that religion and science are not mutually exclusive.

However, some claims of religion contradict experience, and because of this those claims can not be trusted as reliable. For example, a public administrator is more likely to clean dirty public water by using scientific techniques than by prayer.

For other claims, the metaphysical ones, they can't be empirically tested. They are instead taken on grounds of faith, and faith-based conclusions run in to the logical problem of having an infinity of theories based on the same justification. This means that if you justify your belief in God on faith, then there is equal justification for believing in the Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Ajtjuziuuu, the blue aliens on the moon, and so on. Faith can not eliminate any theories and narrow our options like science can.

Science uses the method if deriving conclusions on experience. Religion derives experience from an arbitrary authority (a bible). In normal every day life we choose experience > arbitrary authority. Imagine some dude who said that his book reveals the secrets of getting women that society has repressed, and he offers it to you. You read the first page and it says "If you want to get laid, just ask any woman." You would think the dude as a complete nutcase. But in the case of religion, people do it the other way around when their options are essentially the same otherwise.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

> Justinian I wrote:

> So do a lot of things, but art does not necessarily have to imply a claim with truth-value. Religion asserts claims with truth value, and they are not all metaphysical. God, heaven and hell may be metaphysical, but the story of Jesus is meant to be a historical account. Miracles are also not strictly metaphysical, but a claim meant to describe the truth of real world events with divine intervention. Religion is thus subject to empirical criticism. So too are its metaphysical claims. Though the truth value of God can not be tested, someone using the empirical method can criticize it on the grounds of infinity of like theories. With that justification, why not believe that there are aliens on the moon or in the Spaghetti monster?


ok, well lets look at the physical beliefs that Christians believe in. Christians dont have the belief of miracles as one of their core beliefs miracles make people believe who see them and thats about it a creed that a christian says doesnt include a beleif that Jesus walked on water, or turned water into wine.  there was a guy named Jesus, or some Hebrew name for Jesus and he was crucified and he was rose from the dead. thats all that can be subject to empirical criticism . ok, i think the only part of that you can question is the rising from the dead. And we have many cases nowadays of people dieing and then coming back from the dead, so thats not impossible.

113

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

"there was a guy named Jesus, or some Hebrew name for Jesus and he was crucified and he was rose from the dead. thats all that can be subject to empirical criticism . ok, i think the only part of that you can question is the rising from the dead."

And the actual existence of said man.

"And we have many cases nowadays of people dieing and then coming back from the dead, so thats not impossible."

After days?

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

"religion is the answer to a problem where as science is trying to find the answer."

More exact would be: "religion can be a temporary answer to a problem to some where as science is trying to find the answer."

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

115

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

no my statement is correct, alan, no need to change it wink

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

116 (edited by windowsME 22-Sep-2008 17:51:23)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Justinian - Every scientific experiment has a scientist who is a human being running it - therefore every experiment, finding, or whatever you'd like to plug in has a very high probability of being biased by the person in interpretation of results, or prior to the setting up of the experiment.

Whether that be an idiot Christian "proving" something that was real to be a fraud and misleading scores of people, or whether that be an idiot scientist "proving" that evolution was true with piltdown man - this garbage happens very frequently on both sides of the equation - mankind cares more about proving his own beliefs (in scripture and in the study of nature) than he does about finding truth and being forced to change his beliefs accordingly - that's simple fact.

When Ice Cream sales rise, so do murder rates - it's a correlation! (says the sno-cone vendor)
Or maybe it's just the heat tongue

If mankind seeks to prove himself correct, right, or justified (just to cross the religious line there) as opposed to seeking what is true or right - he'll mess it up, fudge the evidence, and screw the world tongue

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

The method of science assumes logic.

Logic is what makes the mathematician proud.

But what if logic isn't the answer?

Just what if our way of thinking, our emperical way, isn't the right one?

Sure, it's one we can test, it's one we can grasp, because logic seems somehow connected to the human mind, but what if logic was only an invention of it to make yourself comfortable?

This is a question which I have been pondering over  for almost 8 years, ever since a friend asked me and don't get me wrong, I am a scientist.

And it somehow feels connected to this thread as well.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

windowsME: "Just as proof that science, like religion, if bent to prove a man-made point instead of used to discover truth - is just as dangerous an entity in our search for knowledge tongue"

Science doesn't serve anybody's purpose except its own. It can not "prove" a man-made point unless that point happens to be in compliance with nature. Religion is a socio-political matter, has absolutely nothing to do with examining the world and making predictions of its behaviors based on models and theorems, and is more about control and/or spirituality than it is about seeking knowledge of our world and its inhabitants. There is no purpose to this discussion, except as it is relevant in Hollywood films where "mad scientists" make great entertainment.

windowsME: "Every scientific experiment has a scientist who is a human being running it - therefore every experiment, finding, or whatever you'd like to plug in has a very high probability of being biased by the person in interpretation of results, or prior to the setting up of the experiment."

If an experiment is not reproducable, the results of the initial experiment may be brought into question. Moreover, any papers submitted to scientific journals are peer-reviewed prior to publication. Evidence is examined and then re-examined time and time again. The funny thing is, every scientist will have his preconceptions, but every scientists' preconceptions will be different. It is not necessary to consider bias, because whatever bias was present had been long rooted out by the sheer numbers attempting to reproduce the initial experiment, or in reviewing the findings.

Piltdown Man is a perfect example of science going back to review past evidence, even though the discovery was heralded some 40 years prior by primarily British scientists as the pinnacle missing link, scientists in the 1950s still felt it necessary to give Piltdown real scrutiny, given how technology had advanced so much by that time. Hence the grand hoax was revealed.

I doubt, given the state of today's technology, it would be simple to reproduce a hoax as successful as Piltdown, and Piltdown indeed played on the preconceptions of many scientists at the moment of its discovery. That is, admittedly, what made it so attractive a find. However, later geographical evidence and microscopic examination revealed that Piltdown could never have been.

windowsME: "If mankind seeks to prove himself correct, right, or justified (just to cross the religious line there) as opposed to seeking what is true or right - he'll mess it up, fudge the evidence, and screw the world"

Yeah. . . um, you have been watching far too many movies.

Caution Wake Turbulence

119 (edited by windowsME 22-Sep-2008 23:46:56)

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

And you haven't - mostly because you can't see around your own pelvic regions tongue
Even try to understand what I was saying, or just automatically perceive it as an insult and religious hog wash?

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Science = Billions of years + Evolution + Natural Selection
Religion = Seven days + Magic beard man
...
Yes, it does sound stupid when you put it like that doesn't it?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

windowsME: "Even try to understand what I was saying, or just automatically perceive it as an insult and religious hog wash?"

I don't believe I said any of this, just that you seem ignorant of the scientific method and, well, the whole process of discovery.

@Caelin

Mathematical logic has very little to do with the scientific method, depending on its application. Anyway, what sort of scientist are you?

Caution Wake Turbulence

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Hey magic bearded men formed most of our younger days fascination with magic, merlin, boredom.

What happens if I type here?

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

@Caelin

Mathematical logic has very little to do with the scientific method, depending on its application. Anyway, what sort of scientist are you?


A mathematical physicist so I don't get your point, but maybe that's just my English.

In theoretical physics logic is necessary to prove anything.

Maybe that's what you wanted to say.

Anyway, there is a similarity between both at least : if you can't prove it just ain't right, neither in the scientific method nor the mathematical logic.

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Your double negative makes my head spin.

Caution Wake Turbulence

Re: Evolution vs Creationism

Can we just ban these creationists

They shouldnt be allowed in charge of a PC