Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

@ Dragon
Its the same old run around.
The Poor, or low income can get subsidized Health Care run by the state.
Those able to pay, do so.  Those that THINK they get in included in their job are foolish, because its just the added cost of labor.....its part of their pay.

Im not a selfish American.  Im just a person who doesnt believe in Govt. and its ability to do ANYTHING efficiently.  Let the Govt. provide what is mandated by the Constitution.
health care in not mentioned.....anywhere.

As to shopping where you want ?? 
ROLF laughing.

Exactly.  You shop for yourself where you want.  thats Freedom.  Thats what I support.  I dont need a GOVT taking my money, and telling me how to spend it.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

seems you selectively support government taking your money and deciding what to spend it on. i mean, citizens could just buy guns instead of paying taxes to support a government-organised military force.

A pessimist is a well-informed optimist.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

@Lucifuge

I've got Medicare and Medicaid as well.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

BW - it gets cheaper to have it run by the government. Cheaper for the people. Since then there is no need for a bilion dollars in profit. Meaning: "It will cost billions of dollars less" smile

I dunno how that's such a bad thing...

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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

@ Lucifuge....

Ahh....I got it.
You have no CLUE what the US Constitution means.
You dont know .... do you ??

Are you American  ??  Before I continue ??


@ Dragon.....It gets CHEAPER ??  ROFL.
Is that what they teach you in University ??  Or are you actually a student of this ??
Are you an economist with a micro specialty in the Medical Field ??  Do you at a minimum have Economic training ??

you write:
"Cheaper for the people. Since then there is no need for a billion dollars in profit. Meaning: "It will cost billions of dollars less"


Wow.  You are deeply indoctrinated, arent you.....

So, Competition doesnt work in Health Care ??
The Incentive for research and further development will come from where ?

ROFL.  Oh....I got it.  The Govt. will hand out .... umm.... "Prizes ?"

If You believe in Socialism, as in a Marxist.....yea....then embrace your system.
If you believe in Free Markets .... then how can you have this position ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

31 (edited by Justinian I 07-Sep-2008 20:40:50)

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

In the US, I haven't waited much longer than 15 minutes for an appointment. My bad on the two hours, I thought you meant in even an appointment.

As for wealthy Canadians coming to the US for health care, well it suggests we have better health care available.

> The Dragon Agh wrote:

Always the selfishness of every american. ME ME ME, I don't want to help anyone else. ME ME ME!

Ever think that maybe this is why we're a world empire and you're not?

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

"So, Competition doesnt work in Health Care ??
The Incentive for research and further development will come from where ?

ROFL.  Oh....I got it.  The Govt. will hand out .... umm.... "Prizes ?""

almost all countries that have universal healthcare have private institutions working beside them.

Government needs to tell people what to do with some of their money. Police, firedepartment, army, education, roads, etc...

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered
automatic weapons."-General Douglas MacArthur
"Cluster bombing from B-52s are very, very, accurate. The bombs are guaranteed
to always hit the ground."-USAF Ammo Troop

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

"The Incentive for research and further development will come from where ?"

Private R&D firms that receive huge pay outs for developing such.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

@TDA

To think that just because no profit is involved will make it cheaper overall is pretty much ignorant of factors that drive cost up.  Here is an experiment that you could do in the US.  Set up a little fundraiser to make brownies.  Everyone chips in the same amount, say 50 cents each.  Now, you take all the money you earned and buy the ingredients to make the brownies (be sure to tally how many people chipped in and over what period of time).  You go back to the same place with your brownies, but they haven't been sliced yet.  Instead, you put up a sign that says free brownies.  You will soon gather a crowd of people and they will realize that they can take a slice of whatever size they want with no additional cost to them.

What do you think is going to happen?  Are the people going to be good and each take a similar sized slice?  How long will it take for the brownies to run out?  How many people will have taken a brownie (if you've counted...don't  forget to count those who took seconds)?

My point is, you give someone items on a silver platter and it gets abused.  The items, the platter, and the server get abused.  Here in America, even our healthcare facilities (for-profit and non-profit) abuse the insurance companies.  What will prevent them from abusing government healthcare?  What prevents an individual from getting unnecessary procedures?  Just because the government isn't in it for a 'profit', doesn't mean no one else is.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Government is essentially a corporation. It provides services that are in demand, such as defense and justice. Now a government that has an expansive range of services to provide will be less efficient than one that is more narrow.

36 (edited by Lucifuge 07-Sep-2008 21:05:39)

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

blackwing, my nationality is none of your concern. in an argument, retreating behind someone's nationality is a sign of a frightened mind. i would like to hear your answer to my question, though. do you feel that it's fine you pay taxes to support some specific services but not some other specific services? perhaps you didn't like me making the quick comparison to military. what about road work? do you feel citizens should get to decide who they pay to fix their roads instead of paying taxes for it to be decided on their behalf?

slight offtopic: why is it that every time i ask something on this forum, people get upset and tell me to ask if i don't understand something? then when i ask something, it's back to square one?

A pessimist is a well-informed optimist.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Lucifuge.....is your nationality a secret ??  ROFL....are you ashamed ?

What your nationality is ??
It IS of my concern before I educate you on what the US Constitution is ??


In the US Constitution, I cant find any place that it says the GOVT. is to provide Education or Health Care.

you didnt "ASK" a question, you STATED this:
"i mean, citizens could just buy guns instead of paying taxes to support a government-organized military force."

National Defense, rising a military force, IS the job of the Federal Govt. mandated by the US Constitution.


If you are an AMERICAN, you should know this.
If you are not......ashamed to mention where it is you come from.....hehe.....then, you just learned something.

also, stop whining.  It gets you no where.


@ DPS....oh yea ??   
And, I suppose, these R&D Firms get paid off by Govt. Weenies ??

Now, isnt that just grand ??  Not only are you going to give your money to have a GOVT run your health Care, NOW...you will give them money to PAY OFF Private R&D firms ??

How trusting you are of GOVT.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Government Is A Corporation!!!!!!!!!!!

39 (edited by Lucifuge 07-Sep-2008 21:39:00)

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

good grief. i can understand repeating myself in real life, but not when the text i typed is there for anyone to read again.. stop circling around the point. do you feel it's good and right to pay taxes for the government to choose some things on your behalf or not, and if you do, how do you make the distinction which one needs which?

it's good that you inquired about the difference between statement and question. "i would like to hear your answer to my question, though. do you feel that it's fine you pay taxes to support some specific services but not some other specific services?" understanding the whole concept instead of reading just one sentence works wonders. it's very agreeable that you are so open to getting educated.

just out of curiosity, in your estimation: if laws are made by men, could it be vaguely possible that laws can be changed by men?

A pessimist is a well-informed optimist.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Seems like BW got crazy over my post. Perhaps he got a rough life and wants to take it out in here? Who knows? smile

Anyways. The profit is an essiential part in this. Healthcare companies in USA makes bilions of dollars from their patients....
Also in my country the government gives out loads of cash to companies and scientists to develop new and better (hopefully) things in most fields, including healthcare.

Private things are not better by default. It's idiotic to think that.

And there shouldn't be any "free markets" on stuff that everyone is in need of (aka, healthcare, polics and schools and similar). Also electricity companies.

Those should be owned by the state to make sure that the people can get what they need.
Everything else could go on this so called "free" market.

If you looked at your own country BW and saw all the people living in poverty there and compare it with the European countries... well I guess you're a bit blind smile

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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Justinian I
Government Is A Corporation!!!!!!!!!!!
_______________________________
Um no. Governments doesn't need to make any profit. That's an extreme difference smile

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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Also, who gives a damned about your "US constitution"?
Universal healthcare would make USA a better place. Dunno why anyone of us here even bother with trying to show you that. You're stuck in your weird views where your country is going down little by little. More and more people are getting it worse and a few gets everything. Crappy country.

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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Dragon.

If I look at my country ??  ROFL.
Look at your country.

You like Marxist style govt. Control ??   From those that have to those that need as mandated by a central govt ??

You leftists dont get it.   Govt. is inefficient and wasteful.  The more bloated, the more corrupt.
the More control you hand over to the Govt., the less control you have of your own life.


I dont need the Govt. to TAKE from me what it thinks is "Fair" so it can administer it back to me.  Along the way, I help some lame ass son of a bitch have a Govt. Job........and sit behind a desk, and tell me what is best for me.

People.  Dont you get it ?
I can do that just fine my self.  I dont need a Govt.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

"I can do that just fine my self.  I dont need a Govt."

And you wonder where I get the "you are a selfish person" from?
Loads of people cannot do this by themselves. That is a fact.

Also, your posts are really weird. You clearly try to belittle everyone else when they disagree with you. But then again... I don't expect anything better from you tongue

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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Right_Wing - the worst debater ever I wonder.

Someone - [long explanation over something]
RW - "You are wrong, you silly left-wing person!"
Someone - [long explanation over something again]
RW - "You are wrong, you silly left-wing person!"

Funny... but after 100 posts it's getting boring.

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
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4 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 945 57233492

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

"@ DPS....oh yea ??   
And, I suppose, these R&D Firms get paid off by Govt. Weenies ??"

Government, private companies that produce and sell medical equipment and drugs, etc.

"Now, isnt that just grand ??  Not only are you going to give your money to have a GOVT run your health Care, NOW...you will give them money to PAY OFF Private R&D firms ??"

As opposed to paying off private companies via use of said developements.  Either way you end up paying for it.

"How trusting you are of GOVT."

When a single party holding more than 50% control of the federal governing body without a little give and take is rare yes I trust their inability to make unilateral decisions.  That's a major difference between our governments, you have no way of controlling yours since whichever party controls congress can pass whatever they want provided it doesn't violate the Constituiton as long as they have unity.  My government requires the co-operation of not only the ruling party but usually one or more of the opposition parties meaning they must make concessions.  I trust my government because I understand our system is set up so a single power taking control is nigh impossible.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Dragon,

Actually government can make a profit, in the sense that it sometimes has a surplus. What separates government from other corporations is the means which is acquires its revenue. Most corporations gain money for the direct exchange of goods and services for money. Government provides services, and would not exist if it did not provide them, but is able to raise revenue through taxes. So people are paying and receiving these services without necessarily their consent, as a result of the coercive power of government.

Though you are right (assuming I took you correctly), that Republican forms of government do not distribute a surplus to shareholders (except in the case of corruption), this fact is irrelevant because it does not disqualify governments from being corporations. And moreover, there are governments that do distribute the surplus to the shareholders. So with this line of reasoning, you would have to say that some governments are corporations and others aren't.

But whether they are corporations also does not disqualify governments from having a market-based description for why they exist.

We can then analyze the success of governments by how well they are able to service for the taxes they receive. A very inefficient government is likely to be overthrown, while one that is more efficient will be able to continue. We find many examples in history that support this model. Central planning, for example, is by its nature very inefficient compared to capitalism. These central planning regimes also were inefficient, with long bread lines etc, and unable to deliver their expansive range of services efficiently came to ruin in favor of ones that could.

With this line of reasoning, I believe that a government that provides a narrow range of services is generally better, because it would be more efficient. By government minimizing the number of markets it services, overall market efficiency tends to be improved.

The question here is, I suppose, is it more efficient for government to service health care than another business? You would think that it would be more efficient if government kept its hands off, but then you can point out that the American system is absurdly expensive compared to other, even universal health care systems. However, much of the inefficiency in the health care system in the US can also be attributed to government.

You would need some detailed experiments and a cost-benefit analysis to really determine what system would be more efficient and inclusive.

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

ok lets just draw up some quick stipulations

How much per year per person?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

Flint just go to wiki... in europe where all countries have universal healthcare we pay less taxes for healthcare than you do overall..

50 (edited by Freelancer 08-Sep-2008 00:34:25)

Re: Universal Healthcare in the US

"You leftists dont get it.   Govt. is inefficient and wasteful.  The more bloated, the more corrupt.
the More control you hand over to the Govt., the less control you have of your own life."

But somehow european countries have universal healthcare.. and they pay less than you.. "is really ineffivent and wasteful" lol... but then again... where does universal healthcare means less control of my life?