>>Ah, so I take it we in the UK can begin launching nukes at France safe in the knowledge that the USA will not say a word until the Germans try to stop us?<<

Yes please do, only the most pleasant outcomes could result.
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Um, I really don't like a moderator to have opinions such as "nuke france and it's GOOD". Dunno about the rest of you though.

Also, "democracy" doesn't really mean that the country can't be attacked. I don't really see why you draw that conclusion.
Like when Israel bombed Libanon to the stoneage (and failed to win still....). Just cause they are "democratic" doesn't mean it's ok.

Also, Russia is a democracy as well...

Russia is a dictatorship by plebiscite.  And Lebanon permitted, and still does, a terrorist group that throws rockets into Israeli cities.  And Lebanon is not even bombed otu of the internal combustion age, as Germany was in 1945.  And the hypothetical proposition was an Anglo-French-German nuclear exchange.

>If you got your news from reuters and the BBC as well as sites ending in ru.net, you'd know Ossetia is NOT independent, is not asking for independence, is talking of joining Russia, and Russia's puppet President Not-Putin says they'll accept whatever decision it should want to make.<

Surely I do not see a mod condemning someone for researching both sides?

>If South Ossetia joins Russia where is the Russian border? Didn't it just move? And by what means?  A: Invasion and ethnic cleansing.  The Georgians are being moved out of Ossetia.<

This is me looking surprised (0_0) nothing about this situation makes me look like that, why does it you?

>Yes please do, only the most pleasant outcomes could result.<

How true to form.

>You might want to address the issue, that Russia is hostile to US humanitarian aid to a third party country, as if Russia had a say in our traffic with other countries.  I grew up around apparatchiks who parroted Moscow, you need more practice.<

Ah, reality not matching with spoken so let's just call each other names to distract... (

@fokker:
"Surely I do not see a mod condemning someone for researching both sides?"
It has nothing to do with yell being a mod. Nor his capabilities of moderating the forums. You shouldn't make a debate that personal.

But back to toppic I would ask you react to my claim russia is not a democracy. If I remember well you said it was. Is your definition of a democracy is having ellections? (not putting words in your mouth, just asking)

Maybe, but being born before '91 you should understand how the biggest part of russians can't look objectively to the facts. I couldn't, you couldn't.

>>You denied at first that was what was happening.  Now you admit to it but say "so what"?
"So what" is not an argument.<<

Because it is not happening, you can spin this whichever way you like, for as long as you like, it will not change the facts, or the _order_ of things.
If Ossetia joins Russia, so what? A little White satellite appears beyond the borders of the motherland, so what? If Georgia gets stomped for trying to coerce Ossetia with guns and bombs, so what? The Yell gets tetchy because he cannot accept the fact that they chose Russia while the rest of the country chose America, so what? It does not change the order in which things actually happened, it does not change the reality of the situation, and it does not change my opinion:

Georgia didn't want Ossetia to become it's own state, fine, deal with it in a mature and responsible manner.
Georgia wants Ossetia to die, not fine, meet my thermonuclear penis-extension.

Georgia is lucky, if I were in charge of Russia I would have nuked Georgia into dust the very instant I heard that it was trying to bomb the snot out of people who's only crime was to vote White.

>And I only hear the .ru side from you.<

I imagine it would seem like that to you, especially as half of the truth of the situation is what it is and not what you say it to be, but do not let that distract from the fact that I am merely stating the facts.

>Again, spouting rhetoric instead of talking to the issue.  Of course we will send what we please to Georgia as we would to Britain or Egypt without consulting Russia.  Why should we?  Got an answer?  Or just "Oh now we see the violence inherent in the system?<

Again spouting insults. I'll bet you genuinely expect me dignify you with a real response after this too.

>Again, AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA<

Didn't think you'd like to be reminded of that, of the fact that Russia is simply doing what America is doing. But this time on a much smaller scale, and with a real reason to boot!
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I'm bored now, bored of listening to you desperately spin this situation so that nobody notices that Georgia were the aggressors, or that Russia was pulling out until you Yanks got impatient, once again making a situation a million times worse.
The facts are the facts.
The order is the order.
Reality is reality.
The 50's are over.
Deal with it.
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>"Surely I do not see a mod condemning someone for researching both sides?"
It has nothing to do with yell being a mod. Nor his capabilities of moderating the forums. You shouldn't make a debate that personal.<

But the point still stands: I researched BOTH sides of the situation and was publicly berated for it, for having a sense of fairness and balance.
As for being personal, not my problem, I'm not the one who started calling people naughty names, I'm not the one who got personal in the first place... Reality and order, remember?

>But back to toppic I would ask you react to my claim russia is not a democracy. If I remember well you said it was. Is your definition of a democracy is having ellections? (not putting words in your mouth, just asking)<

My definition of democracy is the same as yours and the same as The Yell's and the same as Black Wing's, the difference is that I don't change my mind when people vote for people I don't like. If I was that kind of person I'd have been jailed for terrorism back in 1997, when Blair won the election.

You don't like Putin? I don't like Putin! Does that change the fact that he had to be democratically elected to hold either of the positions he has held?

" But the point still stands: I researched BOTH sides of the situation and was publicly berated for it, for having a sense of fairness and balance."
No, for adopting a pro-Russian pov that ONLY .ru media sources run.  You denied, with Russian media, that Russia was advancing on Gori and Poti.  You insisted Russia was leaving and wasn't causing a humanitarian crisis.  You complained, with Russian media, that US humanitarian aid was an incitement and provocation.  You shrug off Ossetian ethnic cleansing of their province and the UN principle that borders don't change with military incursions.

>>>>Again, spouting rhetoric instead of talking to the issue.  Of course we will send what we please to Georgia as we would to Britain or Egypt without consulting Russia.  Why should we?  Got an answer?  Or just "Oh now we see the violence inherent in the system?<
Again spouting insults. I'll bet you genuinely expect me dignify you with a real response after this too.<<<
What's the insult?  And again you ignore responding to the issue that Russia has no business condemning our humanitarian aid packages to a third country, and for once Bush found the cojones to tell him to go pound sand.

>>I'm bored now, bored of listening to you desperately spin this situation so that nobody notices that Georgia were the aggressors, or that Russia was pulling out until you Yanks got impatient, once again making a situation a million times worse.
The facts are the facts.
The order is the order.
Reality is reality.
The 50's are over.
Deal with it.<<
That condescending attitude might be considered "insulting".
"Facts are facts" is not an attitude that matches "I consider both sides".
Your facts are again WRONG and again WRONG in exactly the same way Russian propaganda is wrong--I remind of the FACT Russia LIED about being in Gori and Poti, LIED about being out by 8/18 and LIES about the cease-fire letting it set up checkpoints all through Georgia.  It is those LIES that make this bad.

>>>>Again, AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA AMERICA<
Didn't think you'd like to be reminded of that, of the fact that Russia is simply doing what America is doing. But this time on a much smaller scale, and with a real reason to boot!<<
Russia is stealing territory through invasion.  Where is USA doing that?

>>Because it is not happening, you can spin this whichever way you like, for as long as you like, it will not change the facts, or the _order_ of things.<<
America ain't Britain. Fighting back is an option.

"If Ossetia joins Russia, so what?"  WAR CRIME
"A little White satellite appears beyond the borders of the motherland, so what?" WAR CRIME
"If Georgia gets stomped for trying to coerce Ossetia with guns and bombs, so what?" WAR CRIME
"The Yell gets tetchy because he cannot accept the fact that they chose Russia while the rest of the country chose America, so what? It does not change the order in which things actually happened, it does not change the reality of the situation, and it does not change my opinion:" 
I thought you liked democracy, which is tetchiness made real!

Alsace and Lorraine were taken from France in 1870...

> Little Paul wrote:

>[This is me not being able to tell the difference between a Democratic Election from ten years ago and the undemocratic results of today]<

Understand yet? Sorry to be rude.
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> TheYell wrote:

>No, for adopting a pro-Russian pov that ONLY .ru media sources run.<

For what it is worth I am sorry that the facts, my conclusions, and the true order of events disagree with your favourite media outlet's bias, but that does not change the fact that my position comes from an observation of reality truth and not just spoken truth, and neither does your baseless assertion.

>You denied, with Russian media, that Russia was advancing on Gori and Poti.<

When? Quote me exactly. (Why do I get deja-vu whenever I say that... oh, wait)

>You insisted Russia was leaving and wasn't causing a humanitarian crisis.<

No, I said they were leaving until America got impatient, I said nothing about any humanitarian crisis.

>You complained, with Russian media, that US humanitarian aid was an incitement and provocation.<

I never complain, it's annoying.

>You shrug off Ossetian ethnic cleansing of their province<

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" Is the basis of American Justice, yes? I think the Ossetians wanting the Georgians out of their province is quite understandable considering it was not very long ago that Georgia was trying to "coerce" them by force... oh, wait, I forgot; It doesn't matter how this got started, about who started killing who first, all that matters is that we all try our hypocritical best to shame Russia out of a country that is not Russian.

>and the UN principle that borders don't change with military incursions.<

They don't... you seem to be confused... did you perhaps jump to a conclusion?
The border does not change until this is all over... assuming there is anything left when this is all over.

>What's the insult?  And again you ignore responding to the issue that Russia has no business condemning our humanitarian aid packages to a third country, and for once Bush found the cojones to tell him to go pound sand.<

I wonder why Russia didn't want American anything in Georgia until it was out?
I wonder if it has something to do with a certain cold war countries' habit of supplying anti-USSR rebels with weapons under the guise of Aid?
But, of course, America would never do anything so reckless, devious, underhanded, and dishonourable, because that would be against a million treaties and international agreements, like the one that forbid your country from sending spy-planes into their airspace...
Yeah, I wonder why they didn't trust you?

>That condescending attitude might be considered "insulting".
"Facts are facts" is not an attitude that matches "I consider both sides".<

You spin any faster and your glasses will come off. Reality truth = Facts. Spoken truth = Both sides.

>Your facts are again WRONG and again WRONG in exactly the same way Russian propaganda is wrong--I remind of the FACT Russia LIED about being in Gori and Poti, LIED about being out by 8/18 and LIES about the cease-fire letting it set up checkpoints all through Georgia.  It is those LIES that make this bad.<

Finally we get to discuss something real! And in the right order too!

Gori and Poti (never heard of that one): Yes they did.

18th August: But they WERE leaving, all you had to do was be patient. But instead we have this... this situation. If you wanted a war that badly the smart thing would be this; Wait until they stop pulling out (probably somewhere in Ossetia) and then get angry and shouty...

Ceasefire: Neither side obeyed that one therefore both sides are liars.

Checkpoints: I can see why they should be there, and I can see why they should not. I know why I would want them there in both retreat and invasion. This is something I can neither condemn nor applaud, therefore I do not believe this is something I can discuss.

>Russia is stealing territory through invasion.  Where is USA doing that?<

In Iraq, or are you planning on removing your businesses as well as your army? Shall we have the discussion about American companies getting first dibs on the corpse of Iraq? Or shall we just accept that an invasion is an invasion no matter if you use a sword or a pen?

>America ain't Britain. Fighting back is an option.<

Nice to see we rubbed off on you in WW2, there is hope for you yet. Slim, but it is there.

>"If Ossetia joins Russia, so what?"  WAR CRIME<

Ossetia wanting to join Russia is a war crime? So when Scotland leaves the UK you will Kaboom them for us, yes?

>"A little White satellite appears beyond the borders of the motherland, so what?" WAR CRIME<

Again, how?

"If Georgia gets stomped for trying to coerce Ossetia with guns and bombs, so what?" WAR CRIME

Yes Yell, Georgia's hostilities towards Ossetia were a Crime, but unfortunately there was no declaration of war so nobody will be punished for warcrimes... how sad.
I don't understand how Georgia paying the price for it's aggression is a warcrime, just like I don't understand how Britain trying to punish Germany for invading Poland was a warcrime. Could you explain?

>I thought you liked democracy<

I do, it is the closest we will ever come to true Communism in my lifetime. What about you, do you like Democracy, do you believe that the people should be free to choose their leaders, no matter how stupid?

/dies of a stroke

UN gave them a pass by calling for creation of a new country in that area