Topic: chinese intl. affairs

bbc just published a report on Chinese military assistance to Sudan, which is being used in their genocide against the black Sudanese.

the next time China wants to complain to Japan about the Jap pm visiting the WWII shrine, they should reply he was praying for the Darfur genocide victims.

beijing is unequivocally out for beijing, just goes to show.

the olympics will be a charade.

2 (edited by tavius 13-Jul-2008 19:17:33)

Re: chinese intl. affairs

China is currently on the extreme side of a non-interventionist foreign policy (with the exception of the civil "dispute" with Taiwan). They don't consider a country's domestic policies, they just trade with whatever regime is in control and whatever policies they have in place - for good or bad. Some would say this makes them the ideal trading partner, as you won't find special clauses exempting their contractors from local jurisdiction or requesting allocated space for building a couple of military bases in their trade agreements.

Personally, I think countries should strive to adopt a "moral" foreign policy. However, one has to wonder about the implicatons of a new brand of Chinese foreign policy which takes trade and the military explicitly as a tool to mould the domestic affairs of others according to its perceptions.

BTW it's not just the Chinese that have an issue with Japan's refusal (and unfortunately their Western support in this) to stop the honouring of their war criminals. On this issue they actually find common cause with the Taiwanese, Koreans and Filipinos.

Perhaps Germany should repeal all previous apologies for its part in the Holocaust and start making pilgrimages to the shrines of Hitler and his cronies everytime it has an issue with one of Israel's foreign policies in the Middle East...

Re: chinese intl. affairs

so you see no hypocrisy in china wailing about japan's "genocide" against the chinese for the sake of building their empire, while supplementing sudan's genocide for the sake of their (business) empire?

Re: chinese intl. affairs

If the Japanese were just doing what was necessary for conquest (yes even plunder) then maybe. But they went way, way beyond that.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

in short, your ethic is, anything to make a $$$ ?

Re: chinese intl. affairs

All I'm saying is - you may not want to see a new China that suddenly decides it has a high moral mission to be impressed upon the outside world.

I'm all for intervention in Sudan independent of the U.N, by a coalition of nations similar to that which went into Iraq. China's Sudan policy will change once it has no incentive to continue its current trading relationship with Sudan.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

the question is if beijing has any morals at all

Re: chinese intl. affairs

Exactly!  Which, by the way the are acting (or inaction), they don;t seem to mind being useless to ending the genocide.  I know that China has told Sudan that they will impose sanctions if they continue acting in the horrific manner that they are, but China is getting so much out of them that I doubt much will actually happen.

It's a shame.  One of the only countries that has an impact on the Darfur incident and, even though they are trying to create a clean image for the Olympics, this is one scar that is clearly visible.

I want a mustache ride!!!

Re: chinese intl. affairs

"beijing is unequivocally out for beijing, just goes to show."

Just like every other nation/state/city/person in the world.

"the question is if beijing has any morals at all"

I'm sure they do they just might not have the same morals you do.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

its so typicall for us morally superior westerners...
we are so good in pointing with our fingers at others.. forgetting what shit we did in our past. even when we had been further developed then china is by now. Who are we to act like this? I mean.. If you take the "western" world all together.. China probablly still has more inhabitants.
Only like 30 years ago my country supplied factories which could be used to produce chemical weapons to iraq. We all know where that ended.

and i think china has every right to protest when japan celebrates their war heroes...
as someone stated above allready.. what would happen if germans would start praising the birthday of hitler. what if me make it our national holiday instead of day of reunion? Israel would be so quick in blaming us.. followed by the US.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

schniepel, german?

even if not, your attitude typifies the problem with european nationalism. you feel you need to castrate yourselves for what happened before your lifetime.

let not the sons be held for the sins of their fathers? hello, usually you protestants are good with bible quotes.

without talking about the colonial baggage of the west, i can point out deficiencies in china's present policies.
1. i am not responsible for british/spanish imperialism.
1b. i'm irish, if anything, my ancestors were the victims of said imperialism. i have as much a right to cry about historical injustice as the next, even if i'm white (gasp). but i leave the victim card for others.
2. all that has nothing to do with china abetting genocide in sudan. all that ^ is a red herring.
2b. i don't condemn genocide as a morally superior westerner. i condemn it is a human being. you know, humankind, human rights...

the point i was making was china's hypocrisy in politically bereaving the genocide against them while abetting/profiting off genocide against another people. if you were tibetan you would understand. pretty sure they have nothing wrong with westerners helping their cause. last i heard they were trying to arouse awareness by using western visitors to the olympics.

but i guess what is important is not the crime, but the person who dials 911. and if you're a westerner, don't touch that phone.

makes so much sense, cultural relativism.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

I am not a protestant...in germany we have 34% protestant and 34% catholics... i am a catholic... but i honestlly do not care for religion at all.

I personally think that "castrating ourselfs for the sins of our grandfathers" made at least germany what it is today. I wouldn

Re: chinese intl. affairs

when i see flying the national flag considered risky or racist, i call it castration. no balls.

except for switzerland. anyways, somewhat tangential.

now, you talk of multiple standards. who? me, or my govt. i know i have been despised for acknowleding the plight of palestinians and the unjust way their land was seized out from under them. my govt.? no question about it. hence, why i tirade against its incoherent foreign policy and support ron paul.

then you say, first clean up our own...
sounds like a justification, that so what sudan, b/c israel, chechnya, palestine, etc

so now we need to get in line? ticket #? sounds a little socialist.

and you can accuse me of dislike of china or whatever, as long as by china you mean ccp.

point made, english fine; i disagree sudan has to wait in line for an end to genocide. it's been 20+ years already.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

nah, point not made:P

I mean we should clean our own alleays before we go start pointing fingers at china.
The Problem in Sudan is not that they are using chinese military equipment.
In Sudan and at any genocide in the world we need to do something as fast as possible.
But i ask you, what do you have in mind what should be done?
A coalition like it was in iraq? hmm, i guess in Sudan i would even support that. Maybe even Nato could do it.
But then again.. will we send such coalotion forces to Chechenia? To Palestine???
Will our goverments send such a force to Sudan?
I doubt.
Why did they send such a force to Iraq and not to Sudan where it would be a good thing?
Maybe in Sudan there would be no $$$ to make.
So isn

Re: chinese intl. affairs

flag waving was europe in general.

historical parallel...germany:iraq::china:sudan
if it was so wrong for germany, it is not less wrong for china

if one had to be perfect to help another, no one could help anyone. it's a pitiful stance. rooted in a way of thinking that victor hugo trounced in les miserables.

about the $$$, ofc it's worse to abet for $$$ than not help for want of $$$, though how much worse i won't say.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

/me waves the Arpad flag.  Am I a facsist, now?

Re: chinese intl. affairs

China thinks they deserve any nation that once stood under the control of ancient China.

Think if Greece said the same, if Germany said the same, if Italy said the same, England, France, Spain, Portugal, Russia, and Mongolia...

China is Imperialistic, and has an agenda. So far they claim to be taking back 'ancestral' lands, but this is a cover story.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

18 (edited by xeno syndicated 16-Jul-2008 01:22:40)

Re: chinese intl. affairs

But on topic, it sounds as if China's policies are amoralistic.  How is this different from EVERY other economic power?  To some extent, every nation's policies fall short of desirable moral standards.  But let's not call these policies 'morally deficient'.  Let's call it 'humanistically defiicient'.  Let's say that the governments of the world should (and yet often fail) to provide domestic and foreign policies which protect and foster the human rights of its citizens.  Let's recognise the fact that ALL countries fall short in this regard.  Let us also recognize that ALL nation states generally do NOT succeed in fostering equality of DIGNIFIED economic opportunity as well. 

So, is there a way for nations to improve their domestic human rights policies, and develop a foreign human rights policies and provide for better, more equal, and more dignified route of economic prosperity?  The approach could be an international, cooperative exploration of this issue by our world's leaders.  It would be process of policy discovery and development, much like technological discovery and development, where by the process of finding out which human rights policies actually work, and whereby our nations share that 'discovery' and that 'development' with any country freely.  Our leaders could view successful human rights policies as a kind of new and VALUABLE 'sociological-technology' which not only improves human rights, but also furthers economic development (world leaders tend to do anything if it is in the name of economic development).  However, many national leaders seem to think that 'economic policy development' is somehow independant from 'human rights policy development'.  This, I think, is the root of the problem.

It seems world leaders have forgotten that fostering human rights, fostering equality of economic opportunity, is the process by which economic development occurs.  In fact, one can possibly argue that fostering human rights and increase equality for economic opportunity IS true economic development.

Re: chinese intl. affairs

"i condemn it is a human being. you know, humankind, human rights..."

Guess who made up human rights?

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

20 (edited by Gwynedd 18-Jul-2008 23:28:52)

Re: chinese intl. affairs

right, cuz human rights are made up. murder is a novel concept.

and just cuz everybody else does it, so can we. (as if genocide is the same as ... i don't know, whatever deficiencies you had in mind)

great argument!

next time anyone complains of america's imperialism, i guess i should say

"Ghengis Khan, byatch!" or "Napoleon, [shoe polish]!"

and the dinka just have to accept that they are history's shitbirds of today.

thank god for europe

Re: chinese intl. affairs

"murder is a novel concept."

actually you're wrong.

"cuz human rights are made up"

you're right about this. Our philosophers made it up and now we're trying to force it onto other people.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ ☭ Fokker

Re: chinese intl. affairs

sarcasm.

simon's head.


did cause and effect exist before philosophers philosophised about them?