1 Topic by missin (edited by missin 13-Mar-2017 21:09:45)

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Topic: Planet Swapping Abuse

Due to the fact that you can now transfer planets between family members for 0 morale (maybe its been this way for a while idk, just started playing again) there's a lot of stupid econ strategies you can do now passing planets back and forth to abuse construction science/empire size bonus.

I'm all for using efficient strategies to boost economy, but this is simply too powerful.  For example you can pass 100-150 planets at 300% OB, OB them to 700% for 4-6x+ cheaper than you should be able to because you can bypass needing much invested in construction to get 90%+ bonus by doing it with someone at a low NW, and you can bypass empire large size penalty as well.

NOTE: I'm not talking about beginning of round strategies involving early jumps using construction bonus.  Those jumps are fine and encourage strategic diversity (though they encourage fam bank strategies which is meh, but oh well tongue)

I understand it's kind of a risky strategy (if someone notices and raids you you get rekt) and maybe that's why you think it's 'balanced', but it encourages a few 'toxic' things for the game:

1) It encourages you to NAP everybody close/aggressive so you can do these stupid jumps safely
2) It forces 'fam bank' style even more.  Fam bank is already the most 'effective' strategy, it doesn't need more strengths, you should allow people to play in banker/attacker pairs or SS without too huge of a disadvantage
3) It encourages risky 'all or nothing' strategies where it either works and you get a huge payoff or you get raided and you quit until the next galaxy starts.

Possible fixes:
1) Make intra-family attacks cost morale again.  Perhaps morale loss is lowered to 25-50% of normal losses with a maximum of 10 morale lost per attack when attacking your own family.
2) Make NW 'real time'.  I.E. if you take over a bunch of planets you gain the NW instantly and it effects your science/empire size penalty instantly.  Problem with this is it would make exploring give you instant NW and ruin the types of research jumps that aren't toxic.  Less strategic diversification.  Also simply might be very difficult to put in to the game.
3) Don't allow overbuilding on planets the tick you attack them.  Would be kind of weird, and you'd still want people to at least full build/portal planets the tick they attack them or people would get really annoyed at this rule.

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

Con only let's you build for 50% discount max, not 4-6x. Maybe 60% if you include large empire nw penalty. Nap everyone and win has been by far the easiest way to win for a long time and will continue to be so unless someone magically comes up with a way to redesign the morale system/come up with a change to make it possible to defend a medium-large number of unportalled planets that is actually balanced to prevent farming but also encourage fighting.

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

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3 Reply by missin (edited by missin 13-Mar-2017 20:10:40)

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

2m NW empire with 0% construction bonus at 300% OB building to 700% OB

3*6=1800% cost

9kNW empire with 99% construction bonus

1x6/1.99=~300% cost

that's 6x cheaper.

I don't have a plan to fix the whole system, but fixing part of it helps, even if it's only a little.

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4 Reply by 0rion (edited by 0rion 13-Mar-2017 20:43:29)

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

You're right about the costs. It's not the con bonus which is most important, but the empire size costs. I'm uncertain why you used ob costs in your example. It has no influence and thus should just be dropped.

In case of not napping everyone - it's a viable strategy. And in my opinion the strategy is by no menas abuse og the morale rule. Anyone is open to do this and take the risk of getting raided. It's up to the other families to take advantage of this.

Napping everyone would mean not competing for winning size, and winning Fam NW is far from a win. So basically you're just wasting your time if you'd go with that strategy.

One remark: it was possible before no morale loss for family members, only required more organization to pull it off. But worked just as fine.

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

Earlier on the construction bonus is most important, later it's the empire size cost.  I just put up a specific OB scenario to show a specific scenario.

Just because something is 'open to everyone' doesn't mean it's not a toxic thing for the game.  There's absolutely no way something like this should be in the game.  It's crazy strong/dumb.  Read OP for reasons why it's toxic (more NAPs=bad, forcing fam bank=bad, all-or-nothing quit until next galaxy=bad).

You can easily NAP everybody, infra for 4-5 weeks (depending on round length) then do cancel wars for the last 2-3 weeks and win size easily.

Was it possible before no morale loss?  A little bit I suppose, but you'd have a significantly harder time and it wouldn't be nearly as effective with the right intra-fam attacking rules.

The best change would be 'real time NW', but I imagine that's not easy to implement.

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

Planet swap / con bonus "clever use" has been going on for ages. It is really stupid how well it works pair with how annoying it is to send out fleets and coordinate with people... I have been doing quantam builder for a few rounds now. It is stupidly effective if people are somewhat coordinated or can grasp the effectiveness. Usually one or both of these necessities aren't met.

mbvX, jamjam, nobody, smax

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Re: Planet Swapping Abuse

Personally I think nw should be instant.  Mass raids and mass intra fam swaps are an artefact in the game imho. It takes strategy to (ab)use, but shouldn't be there in the first place.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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