1 (edited by Xeno 23-Jan-2017 02:12:06)

Topic: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

According to wikipedia:

Common factors that may contribute to societal collapse are economical, environmental, social and cultural, and disruptions in one domain sometimes cascade into others. In some cases a natural disaster (e.g. tsunami, earthquake, massive fire or climate change) may precipitate a collapse. Other factors such as a Malthusian catastrophe, overpopulation or resource depletion might be the proximate cause of collapse. Significant inequity may combine with lack of loyalty to established political institutions and result in an oppressed lower class rising up and seizing power from a smaller wealthy elite in a revolution. The diversity of forms that societies evolve corresponds to diversity in their failures. Jared Diamond suggests that societies have also collapsed through deforestation, loss of soil fertility, restrictions of trade and/or rising endemic violence.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse

What doesn't seem to be talked about is how totalitarianism is ultimately the cause of the factors listed and leads to increasing vulnerability of civilization to collapse due to any such factor.

Totalitarianism itself is enabled by the concentration of a civilization's wealth in an ever-decreasing percentage of a population. As such concentration of wealth occurs, the majority of a population increasingly regards the governing authority that has enabled such concentration of wealth to be increasingly illegitimate, leading to a widespread perception of the illegitimacy of the rule of law, and thus collapse of civilization. 

The increasing concentration of economic and political power in an ever-decreasing percentage of the population ((totalitarianism)) results in only that small percentage with political and economic clout retaining some measure by which to cope with the effects of natural disasters; when such disasters occur the vast majority who find themselves unable to cope are disillusioned as to the illegitimacy of the state which failed to provide measures for the majority to cope with the effects of natural disasters. 

The article refers to a 'Malthusian catastrophe' as a possible cause of societal collapse - this is just plain stupid and really pisses me off X(.  That it is even referred to in the wiki article has really diminished my opinion of the whole wikipedia project.  Neo-malthusianism is NOT a valid intellectual perspective as it is based on the erroneous notion that the carrying capacity of an environment or the Earth as a whole is a constant. Neo-malthusianists consist of those who justify lower fertility rates, and, having come into political power increasingly, actually purposefully enact or influence policy according to their neo-malthusian perspective, policies that are causing the collapse of human civilization; their premise being that there are too many people and not enough resources; while the amount of resources available for human prosperity is a constant, totally ignoring the fact that the efficiency by which resources can be used makes the carrying capacity of any environment and the Earth as a VARIABLE; and they do so while they themselves consume what could provide for the economic opportunity and thus prosperity of present and future generations in the TRILLIONS.  How it is that such supposedly intelligent and well-educated people can adhere to what is clearly an erroneous apologetic for totalitarian social-darwinistic (rightist academia) / communistic (leftist academic) ATROCITY is beyond my comprehension.

It has never been the case that Malthusian catastrophe causes the collapse of civilization, but, rather, the misuse of resources (due to egregious concentration of political and economic power by an ever-decreasing percentage of the population) which has caused the scarcity of resources by which the majority would otherwise have prospered and sustained 2+ fertility rates.

Egypt, Greece, Rome, the Aztecs, etc., at one point each started building smaller and smaller pyramids / temples and other infrastructure projects, because such ridiculously costly projects drained resources upon which the majority of their society depended in order to prosper and maintain +2 fertility rates; the same is happening today.

The remedy for this is beyond the scope of technological advancement of any kind; there is no techno-fix for this: the problem is the pervasiveness of systemic totalitarianism itself which results in lower the -2 fertility rates which thus cause societal collapse.  That the academic establishment itself espouses neo-malthusianism and thus -2 fertility rates as desirable and that the academic establishment espouses technology as the ultimate solution to socioeconomic problems is simply the work of systemic rightist totalitarianism at work within the academic establishment.  Equally outrageous is the espousal of leftist totalitarianism as expressed in the next sentence in the wiki article:

Significant inequity may combine with lack of loyalty to established political institutions and result in an oppressed lower class rising up and seizing power from a smaller wealthy elite in a revolution.

The oppressed lower class never rises up and seizes power; its usually the leftist, totalitarian communistic academic  elites who foment civil unrest with their ideology (meaning they were already in power to begin with) that re-seize power after propagandizing and / or implementing policies which have incited and inflamed the masses to violence.  Again it's NEVER the masses which seize power.  That this is even mentioned in the wiki article is evidence of leftist academics'  propaganda at work there. 

It's the ALWAYS such people who instigate and foment civil unrest by their propagandizing their ideology and implementing policies (probably the sort of people who wrote that line in the wiki-article itself) who seize power, not the masses who commit violence and usually die doing so; how can you seize power if you're dead?  No, it's those who hide in the shadows, lurking, cowardly fomenting strife by their 'propagrandizing' and policies while they wait for the violence to ensue; they then wait further for the blood to stop flowing before stepping in and seizing power; when they do so, they become just as totalitarian (if not more so) than their previous rightist counterparts.  After all, they were totalitarians to begin with.

The next line in the wiki article is the most horrifically morally abhorrent thing I have ever read:

The diversity of forms that societies evolve corresponds to diversity in their failures

.

It is suggesting that societal collapse and the loss of TRILLIONS of lives (who could have lived but never will because of such societal collapses) is justifiable because such a culling is simply a natural process of evolution. DEPLORABLE!  Again, neo-malthusian social-darwinistic totalitarians must have written that drivel.

The last sentence in the wiki-blurb references some ideas from a certain Jared Diamond.  I don't know anything about him.  Sounds like he might be on the right track.

But no where does the article refer to declining  fertility rates as the cause of our present-day societal collapse.  Why?  Because systemic totalitarianism as such is operating in society today is essentially dictating to us to think that WE are what's wrong with the world, not totalitarianism itself, and that the solution is that we should be culled.

And we go along with this because we've been bred to succumb to the dictates of totalitarianism; we've actually developed over the millennia since the inception of civilization itself a genetic predisposition to be brainwashed by totalitarianism.  For millennia it has been the less intelligent, the more apathetic, the more subservient, the more complacent, and , essentially, the more sociopathic who have been more successful in terms of biological reproduction within the context of totalitarian societies: those who have been more willing to adhere, adopt, propagate, and benefit from society's totalitarianism and ignore the atrocity it inflicts upon other human beings and life in general on Earth have garnered the prosperity necessary to raise children.

Conclusion: the effect of systemic totalitarianism since the inception of civilization is a human race with an increasingly genetic predisposition towards apathy / sociopathy, which only further entrenches the totalitarianism that has caused our present-day societal collapse.

This has been going on for millennia.  There's no techno-fix for it.  Western civilization is doomed.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Please define the following terms, as used in your post:
1: Civilization
2: Totalitarianism
3: "Societal collapse"

Also, link to the wikipedia article you're referring to?

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3 (edited by Xeno 26-Jan-2017 18:48:08)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The Great Eye wrote:

Please define the following terms, as used in your post:
1: Civilization
2: Totalitarianism
3: "Societal collapse"

Also, link to the wikipedia article you're referring to?

Civilization:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/civilization?s=t

Most of the definitions are applicable

Totalitarianism:

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/totalitarianism?s=t

A bit more difficult, none of the definitions are sufficient.  The best is:

Domination by a government of all political, social, and economic activities in a nation. Totalitarianism is a phenomenon of the twentieth century: earlier forms of despotism and autocracy lacked the technical capacity to control every aspect of life. The term is applied both to fascist governments (see fascism) and to many forms of communism.

The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

I would correct the definition as follows:

"Domination by an authority of political, social, and economic activities. Totalitarianism is a phenomenon inherent to civilization since its inception.   Forms of despotism and autocracy are totalitarian in nature.  A trend towards increased domination over aspects of a system, a social group, or society as a whole. Traditionally, and erroneously, the term totalitarian has been used to refer only to explicitly fascist or communist governments, when totalitarianism should more accurately be regarded as a sociological phenomenon resulting from authoritarianism.  See authoritarian: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/authoritarian.  The term totalitarian is applicable to any form of governance, including liberal democracies, be they leftist liberal democracies implementing neoliberal economic policies or rightist liberal democracies implementing neoclassical economic policies, just as it has traditionally only been applied to fascism and communism.  Totalitarianism is applicable to any social group (corporations, religions, or even families) whose authorities are trending toward increased dominance over aspects of that group.  Even communities seemingly consisting of innately independent and autonomous individuals nevertheless retain attributes of totalitarianism as such might be imbued in that community's individual's personal intellectual perspectives.  Similarly, the design of technologies necessarily retain attributes of totalitarianism as such might be imbued in the personal intellectual perspectives of designers of those technologies.  For example, massive-online video games designed by a player-communities of individual players actively participating in a seemingly idealistic, seemingly democratic design process (i.e. the massive online video game Imperial Conflict) necessarily retain attributes of totalitarianism as such might have been imbued in the individual intellectual perspectives of the individual players contributing to the design of the video game."

4 (edited by The Great Eye 22-Jan-2017 19:23:59)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

[EDIT: SCRATCH ALL THAT.]

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Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

I have edited my definition of totalitarianism.  You might want to re-read it before redoing your response.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The font style of this forum is just not set up to make essay form easy to read. sad

Praise Kek

7 (edited by Xeno 25-Jan-2017 18:42:11)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Okay, let me make the point in as simple and as short a way as possible:

Contemporary systemic totalitarianism over the past 3 generations has lead to lower fertility rates over this period, which has caused the present collapse of western civilization.

http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?

Data indicates it's primarily 'western countries' with fertility rates of < 2.  Societies with three generations of < 2 fertility rates is a clear indication of an impending and inevitable COLLAPSE of such societies, because of very, very simple math:

Take a society of only 10 people, for simplicity, and say they have a fertility rate of 1.5.

10 / 1.5 = number of people who will be able to produce any offspring the next generation.

And so, after the first generation of 10 people able to produce any offspring, the second generation of that society will consist of only 6.6 people to produce any offspring.

After the second generation with the fertility rate remaining the same (6.6 / 1.5), society will consist of only 4.4 people to produce any offspring.

After the third generation with the same fertility rate (4.4 / 1.5), society will consist of only 2.9 people to produce any offspring.

This is a collapse, within 3 generations, whereby the population becomes incapable of suddenly increasing the fertility rate high enough to recover:

To produce enough offspring such that there will be 10 people (the original number of people capable of producing offspring in the first generation) capable of producing offspring in the 4th generation would have to be: (2.9 / x =10) where x is the fertility rate.

What's x?  If you give a @#%@, you do the math.  I'm absolutely fed up giving answers to people who DON'T give a @#$%!

Basically, if a society's capacity to replenish it's population with offspring is diminished by 76%, that society is INCAPABLE of recovering, be it recovering economically, socially, culturally, etc. - such a society is in a state of COLLAPSE in every sense of the word.

This is a culling of the population of the western world worse than that inflicted by any and all wars and atrocities ever committed in all of human history, COMBINED.

What is causing this collapse? I am saying SYSTEMIC TOTALITARIANISM is causing it.  And if it is INTENTIONAL, well, it would be regarded as the worst TOTALITARIAN crime against humanity ever conceived: literally TRILLIONS of people have been / will have been culled, trillions who could have existed but never will because of the intentional mass culling of humanity by neo-malthusian, social-darwinistic / communist TOTALITARIANISM.

WAKE UP!

8 (edited by The Great Eye 17-Feb-2017 05:39:43)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

How are totalitarian regimes causing this reduction in population?  Specific policies should be easy to cite since they would have to be public and pervasive enough to influence (though not necessarily dictate) the choices of nearly every couple in their respective nations.  (Note: Besides China's One-Child Policy.  That one's obvious, and the Chinese government has made it very overt that they have had a policy goal of reducing population growth).

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9 (edited by Xeno 17-Feb-2017 06:08:09)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The Great Eye wrote:

How are totalitarian regimes causing this reduction in population?  Specific policies should be easy to cite since they would have to be public and pervasive enough to influence the choices of nearly every couple in their respective nations.  (Note: Besides China's One-Child Policy.  That one's obvious, and the Chinese government has made it very overt that they have had a policy goal of reducing population growth).

First of all, what regimes do you think aren't 'totalitarian'?

...


What we are seeing in global fertility rates is a sociological phenomenon.  Determining the cause of that sociological phenomenon is to trace back in time to when that sociological phenomenon was different.  In this case, we go back in time from our present 1.5 fertility rates to a time when they were 5 or even higher.

Then we ask the question, "Well, what was so different way back when fertility rates were 5+?"

The answer is obvious: less totalitarianism.

That is to say that over the vast majority of human history, the way people lived was less dominated by the state.  Today, regardless of what 'regime' one lives under, virtually every aspect of human life is dominated by various machinations of state control.

This occurred during other times in history: ancient Egypt, Rome, the Qin Dynasty, etc.. and in each and every case, it was increased totalitarianism which resulted in said societies' collapses.

Fertility rates is simply an indicator of such collapses, regardless of the causes of such collapses (not always totalitarianism causes societal collapses).  It is simply a fact that when <2 fertility rates for 3 subsequent generations INDICATES a societal collapse has become imminent.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Xeno wrote:
The Great Eye wrote:

How are totalitarian regimes causing this reduction in population?  Specific policies should be easy to cite since they would have to be public and pervasive enough to influence the choices of nearly every couple in their respective nations.  (Note: Besides China's One-Child Policy.  That one's obvious, and the Chinese government has made it very overt that they have had a policy goal of reducing population growth).

First of all, what regimes do you think aren't 'totalitarian'?

Let's go with what you refer to as "western nations" (presumably the US, Canada, and various western European nations).  Hell, let's hurl Japan into the mix too because they also have a population growth problem.  This also means there's no way in hell I'm defending Russia as "not totalitarian."

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11 (edited by Xeno 17-Feb-2017 06:09:17)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The Great Eye wrote:

Let's go with what you refer to as "western nations" (presumably the US, Canada, and various western European nations).  Hell, let's hurl Japan into the mix too because they also have a population growth problem.  This also means there's no way in hell I'm defending Russia as "not totalitarian."

Wrong.  Every sort of 'regime' is totalitarian, every kind, from the tribal hunter-gatherer society to Nazi Germany to Stalinist Russia - every society has intrinsic to it some measure of totalitarianism.

And it is not to say that totalitarianism causes infertility: quite the opposite can be true in some cases.  What I am saying is that contemporary expressions of totalitarianism in all societies has been resulting in lower fertility rates.

It's a global phenomenon.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

... So were you going to point out the specific policies that are causing the infertility in these various countries?

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13 (edited by Xeno 18-Feb-2017 04:47:06)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The Great Eye wrote:

... So were you going to point out the specific policies that are causing the infertility in these various countries?

It's not specific policies but sociological facts and connecting the dots:

In western nations, people tend to have fewer children regardless of being in the lower class or middle class or even upper middle income / wealth levels.  So it's not simply about income or wealth.  People are making enough to raise children, but still aren't.  The issue isn't money, but, rather, job security: a person's sense of confidence in their future prospect to maintain the stable-enough income / wealth once they get it is the issue.

Why the loss of confidence in one's future economic stability?  Totalitarianism: the economy is forced into transition and instability by state / corporate influence.  And so the vast majority of people struggle to navigate what is essentially a maze of state / corporate implemented dominance over their daily lives that limits their economic opportunity.  It's at the point where people have to be satisfied with low-paying, insecure or temporary jobs without benefits for years; and when they finally DO get a decent job they remain terrified of losing it; it's often not until a person is in their mid to late 30's (especially if they went and got a degree of some sort from a university) that they have finally gotten a stable-enough job that even allows them to contemplate the possibility of getting married and having children; however, in western nations, divorce rates are between, what, 30% and 60%?  And this has been going on for how long now?  What, 40 years? 

These high divorce rates alone makes anyone who is in the position of even beginning to contemplate the idea of maybe getting married and raising a family good reason to think twice about it:  getting into any venture that has a 30% to 60% chance of FAILURE sure seems pretty risky.  And so what has been causing divorce rates to be so high?  Again, totalitarianism: the vast majority of child-bearing aged people who have somehow struggled through the low-job security, chronic underemployment / unemployment, short term contract, little to no benefits phase of their 'career', and thus have the income / wealth level SECURITY necessary to be confident to some degree in being able to raise a child responsibly over the long term, BOTH have to work incredibly hard under a lot of stress just to do so, because two SECURE incomes rather than merely one is necessary.

This puts incredible strains on couples: two incomes in high-stress environments needed "over the long term" just to get the CHANCE to raise MAYBE ONE child responsibly - IF they somehow got over the terror of the fact that doing so comes with a 30% - 60% chance of failure of their marriage, well...  how many / what sort of people are in a position and have the character to take that risk?  Less than most.  And most who do don't RISK having more than 1 or 2 children.

Again, where does this all come from?  Totalitarianism: it wasn't this way in the past.  There was a time when such stressors were NOT imposed upon the majority of people.  So where did it come from?  What's different?  60 years ago, you did not have the global corporate / governmental economy that is essentially DICTATING this state of affairs upon ALL of humanity.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Wait, when did civilization collapse?

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Undeath wrote:

Wait, when did civilization collapse?

After the third generation of consecutive <2 fertility rates.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

How does that translate to a collapse?

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

17 (edited by Xeno 18-Feb-2017 15:39:12)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Undeath wrote:

How does that translate to a collapse?

First, it doesn't cause a collapse.  The collapse is due to many factors; there are many indicators of a collapse, low fertility rates being a primary indicator thereof.     

That said, low fertility rates in and of themselves might accelerate or worsen a collapse: the economic fall-out of lower population and no possibility of recovery of that population level destroys the economy: housing prices fall, unemployment soars, infrastructure falls into disrepair, etc..

Population decline due to low fertility rates can be 'shored-up' by immigration, but that only hastens the collapse of societies from which people are emigrating if those societies also have <2 fertility rates.

Global instability in markets and social / political unrest that results can cause wars that then, likewise, hasten he collapse of societies.

When underlying factors are the primary cause of the societal collapse, the smart thing to do would be to analyze how such underlying factors might themselves be caused; simply looking at low fertility rates as the underlying cause would be erroneous.

The smart thing for governments to do, rather than just tossing money at people to have children, would be to start understanding the underlying causes of societal collapse and how such result in such low fertility rates.

It will take the state/corporate an honest look at themselves: it's state/corporate-imposed totalitarianism which is the root of the problem.

18 (edited by The Great Eye 18-Feb-2017 18:03:49)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Xeno wrote:

It's not specific policies but sociological facts and connecting the dots:

In western nations, people tend to have fewer children regardless of being in the lower class or middle class or even upper middle income / wealth levels.  So it's not simply about income or wealth.  People are making enough to raise children, but still aren't.  The issue isn't money, but, rather, job security: a person's sense of confidence in their future prospect to maintain the stable-enough income / wealth once they get it is the issue.


So why haven't you moved to one of those bastions of economic stability that have high fertility rates like Somalia, South Sudan, or Afghanistan?  Because those are the places at the top of fertility rates.  Are you saying the average person in Somalia is having children because they're that secure about their $600 GDP per capita?  I found exactly zero countries in the top 20 fertility rate countries with a GDP per capita above $10,000 (Equatorial Guinea was the first above $10,000 per capita GDP the 23rd nation in fertility).  Moreover, a disproportionate amount of the high-fertility rate countries are not just poor, but in the $1-3 per day GDP per capita range.  At this range, price changes that are so small we barely notice them (for example a 5% increase in the price of grain) could easily knock millions of people into starvation.

Are you really saying they're economically stable, as evidenced by their high fertility rate?  Or maybe there's an alternate cause of high/low fertility rates that you're ignoring to fit your own theory?

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19 (edited by Xeno 18-Feb-2017 18:59:06)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Zarf wrote:

So why haven't you moved to one of those bastions of economic stability that have high fertility rates like Somalia, South Sudan, or Afghanistan?  Because those are the places at the top of fertility rates.  Are you saying the average person in Somalia is having children because they're that secure about their $600 GDP per capita?  I found exactly zero countries in the top 20 fertility rate countries with a GDP per capita above $10,000 (Equatorial Guinea was the first above $10,000 per capita GDP the 23rd nation in fertility).  Moreover, a disproportionate amount of the high-fertility rate countries are not just poor, but in the $1-3 per day GDP per capita range.  At this range, price changes that are so small we barely notice them (for example a 5% increase in the price of grain) could easily knock millions of people into starvation.

Are you really saying they're economically stable, as evidenced by their high fertility rate?  Or maybe there's an alternate cause of high/low fertility rates that you're ignoring to fit your own theory?

Economic stability isn't the only factor that affects fertility rates.  You can have nations with economic instability and experiencing a societal collapse and yet still have high fertility rates: fertility rates might not decline in some societies until the late stages of that society's collapse.  They might not see a decline in fertility rates until, for instance, people start actually starving and become physically infertile due to malnutrition.  Also, even in such late stage of societal collapses where there is still >2 fertility rates, it might be because children are seen as commodities: labor, or, in extreme cases, food.

Such societies to which you refer regard children as sources of labor / sources of household income, and so in spite of economic instability in such countries, people regard having many children as a benefit to their household's economy.

This is not the case in the west, where children are seen as an economic liability rather than an asset.  As such, economic instability in western or more 'developed' countries has a more severe negative impact on fertility rates in such nations.  In other words, western or more 'developed' countries are more sensitive in terms of fertility rates to economic instability than are non-western or 'underdeveloped' countries.

20 (edited by The Great Eye 18-Feb-2017 20:31:34)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Let's go with a more comparable counterexample (only just thought of it): Japan.  In Japan, the business culture is trained such that if you are hired by a company, the assumption is that you're in that company for life.  If you screw up, the employer comes to you to apologize for not providing you the resources to do your job.  Japan is probably the best example in the world of a developed nation that provides employees economic stability.  And yet... their fertility rate is 1.4 (by comparison, the US fertility rate is 1.9, and the US has at-will employment).  Explanation?


Edit: Also...

Xeno wrote:

Also, even in such late stage of societal collapses where there is still >2 fertility rates, it might be because children are seen as commodities: labor, or, in extreme cases, food.

That's possibly the most racist thing I've read in this forum in a while, and the US just elected Trump president.  And no, I'm not just talking about the idea of cannibalism.  Cannibalism during a short-term famine is one thing.  Parents choosing to raise a child specifically to be used as food isn't even a remotely efficient use of food.  I'd suggest you provide some proof on this one.

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21 (edited by Xeno 21-Feb-2017 05:22:31)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Zarf wrote:

Parents choosing to raise a child specifically to be used as food isn't even a remotely efficient use of food.

How is it racist? 

As for an example, I was thinking Rome's societal collapses: it wasn't that slaves were intentionally still having children for the purpose of selling them as food to the rich; it was more they were 'encouraged' by their owners to give up their children to be sold by their owners (in many cases probably as food) and were probably 'encouraged' to have more children by their owners for this purpose.

Again, how is this racist?  I'm simply stating how things were.

And a lot about what you say about Japan is a myth / represents a small portion of the population.  There might be less economic instability but more than you imply. 

Think late 80's up to 2010, the so called "Lost 20 Years":

In the late 1980s, abnormalities within the Japanese economic system had fueled a speculative asset price bubble of a massive scale.[...]Trying to deflate speculation and keep inflation in check, the Bank of Japan sharply raised inter-bank lending rates in late 1989.[11] This sharp policy caused the bursting of the bubble and the Japanese stock market crashed.[...][...]Many Japanese companies replaced a large part of their workforce with temporary workers[...]who had little job security and fewer benefits. As of 2009, these non-traditional employees made up more than a third of the labor force.[...]Over the period of 1995 to 2007, GDP fell from $5.33 to $4.36 trillion in nominal terms,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)

Initially, when the credit bubble burst and interest rates rose, you had salary-men in the hundreds of thousands (or maybe even millions) literally flinging themselves out their office windows.

There are other systemic factors, though: housing prices, commute times, culture, especially workplace culture, etc.. - there are countless systemic stressors.  Again, fertility rates aren't affected solely by economic factors.

My take on Japan is that people don't tend to marry or have children because there are too many systemic stressors, with economic instability still bing a major one, probably because Japan is more sensitive than most nations to economic instability.

Has economic instability played the major role in lower fertility rates in Japan over the last 30 years?  Possibly.  The memory of the economic horror inflicted on the Japanese since the late eighties and the stagnation since has made a lot of Japanese people of child-bearing age very wary about being able to provide for 1 let alone 2 children, and in many cases probably prevents couples from even considering starting families in the fist place.

It's a vicious cycle: lower fertility rates only exacerbate / prolong the economic stagnation which then induces further loss of confidence in the long-term economic outlook of would-be parents.

And the whole world is experiencing the same now. 

It's almost like Japan was the test-run for the neo-malthusian / social darwinistic / communistic government/corporate elites who seem hell-bent on 'population control' in the name of 'sustainability'.

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Still waiting for a response, Zarf- you referred to something I said as racist.  I asked how what I had said was " racist", expounded further, and have been waiting patiently...

The Great Eye wrote:

That's possibly the most racist thing I've read in this forum in a while[...]

That's quite an accusation.

23 (edited by The Great Eye 26-Feb-2017 17:47:14)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Sorry, there was quite a bit to write and because this is such a sensitive issue, I wanted to take care to ensure I selected my words appropriately.


Xeno wrote:
Zarf wrote:

Parents choosing to raise a child specifically to be used as food isn't even a remotely efficient use of food.

How is it racist? 

As for an example, I was thinking Rome's societal collapses: it wasn't that slaves were intentionally still having children for the purpose of selling them as food to the rich; it was more they were 'encouraged' by their owners to give up their children to be sold by their owners (in many cases probably as food) and were probably 'encouraged' to have more children by their owners for this purpose.

Again, how is this racist?  I'm simply stating how things were.

There are two separate cases of racism in the statement you cited.  The first is "cannibalism exists in this pile of countries we're talking about, so let's talk about other regions" without providing sources.  The second, more egregious instance, is insinuating that the cannibalism was a premeditated, calculated part of the society's cycle of fertility such that it would explain high fertility rates in some of the described countries... again, without providing sources.

It's racist because perpetuating such a decisionmaking process as a thing occurring among people in the most impoverished nations:
A: Is factually incorrect absent some evidence to the contrary, as the food required to raise a child would be more than the food that would even be obtained from such a process (i.e., it would not actually be effective to do what was described in times of desperation), and
B: Creates a false impression that would, if accepted as true, justify readers to view those poor people as something less than human.  After all... if those people are willing to slaughter their own children like cattle, not out of a momentary act of desperation, but as part of a calculated process of filicide that parents opt to engage in against their own children over the course of months... the average reader may conclude that the problem isn't simply poverty, but that those individuals (the poor you characterize) are simply morally depraved, beyond help.  "They're cannibals" is one of the first lies that has historically been spewed to dehumanize those in impoverished regions of the world and subsequently justify European imperialism.  Not that I'm saying cannibalism doesn't exist... but you have to pull evidence and be damn specific when hurling things out like that.

Which brings me to the "example" of what you were talking about.

First of all, an example that seems more tame should NOT justify the sentence beforehand, and Trump proves why.  If you make a comment that could easily be incendiary, then follow it up with "Oh, no, I mean this much more tame thing" without apologizing for the first statement, you still justify the wording of the first statement... and justify those who want to cling to that first statement doing so.  It's your responsibility to support your statements with facts when discussing such sensitive issues.

Second, your example is, ridiculously unlikely to be what was meant in this discussion because a spontaneous decision to engage in cannibalism wouldn't affect the fertility rate.  If a parent raised a kid to age 8, and was later "encouraged" by the rich to give up their children, that would have absolutely no effect on the fertility rate because that child has already been born.  A parent raising a child who lives to age 80 has the same effect on the fertility rate for the year the child was born as a parent who raises a child that will die at age 5.

Third, my own look into historical cannibalism didn't find this in Ancient Rome.  I could easily be wrong on this, so linky?

Fourth... and possibly the biggest problem... your example is not relevant (and, in fact, justifies every accusation of racism I have levied) because your example doesn't talk about ANY country that was in that discussion.  We were specifically talking about countries in the modern world that had the highest fertility rates... Afghanistan, Somalia, etc.  The example you can cite for your scenario is Ancient Rome.  Not only is it not relevant, but you are applying behavior to people in modern impoverished nations because "Oh, it was done once in Ancient Rome so it must also be done here."  Moreover, because THIS was your example... even if sources are found that would satisfy the above concerns, they are arguably irrelevant because if your statement was rooted in facts about the countries in question, why cite to this weird scenario in a 2,000 year old country that wasn't part of the discussion instead of using those facts you knew about?


And keep in mind... I have given you one massive out: CITE SOURCES.  Sources differentiate characterization from fact.  If you can point out... with links to reputable sources... instances that justify the factual statements made within the countries relevant to our discussion (i.e., no, a source about cannibalism in Ancient Rome doesn't count), then you're at least partially in the clear (although it would still be incredibly insensitive to apply the cannibalism label generally if only a few countries in the list engaged in the practice... especially if the countries engaging in such didn't happened to be the lowest per-capita GDP countries on the list).



Xeno wrote:

And a lot about what you say about Japan is a myth / represents a small portion of the population.  There might be more economic stability but not as much as you imply. 

Think late 80's up to 2010, the so called "Lost 20 Years":

In the late 1980s, abnormalities within the Japanese economic system had fueled a speculative asset price bubble of a massive scale.[...]Trying to deflate speculation and keep inflation in check, the Bank of Japan sharply raised inter-bank lending rates in late 1989.[11] This sharp policy caused the bursting of the bubble and the Japanese stock market crashed.[...][...]Many Japanese companies replaced a large part of their workforce with temporary workers[...]who had little job security and fewer benefits. As of 2009, these non-traditional employees made up more than a third of the labor force.[...]Over the period of 1995 to 2007, GDP fell from $5.33 to $4.36 trillion in nominal terms,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decade_(Japan)

Initially, when the credit bubble burst and interest rates rose, you had salary-men in the hundreds of thousands (or maybe even millions) literally flinging themselves out their office windows.

There are other systemic factors, though: housing prices, commute times, culture, especially workplace culture, etc.. - there are countless systemic stressors.

Again, fertility rates aren't caused by solely by economic instability.

My take on Japan is that people don't tend to marry or have children because there are too many systemic stressors, with economic instability still causing a major role because Japan is probably the nation most sensitive to economic instability.

That said, it's quite possible that economic instability has played the major role in lower fertility rates in Japan over the last 30 years: the memory of the economic horror inflicted on the Japanese since the late eighties and the stagnation since has made a lot of Japanese people of child-bearing age very wary about having more than 1 or 2 children and many don't start families at all.

It's a vicious cycle: lower fertility rates only exacerbate / prolong the economic stagnation which then induces further loss of confidence in the long-term economic outlook of would-be parents.

And the whole world is experiencing the same now. 

It's almost like Japan was the test-run for the neo-malthusian / social darwinistic / communistic government/corporate elites, who seem hell-bent on 'population control' in the name of 'sustainability'.

First of all, judging a people's overall behavior in all of history by their behavior at the times of most difficulty is bull.

Second, that argument would make sense if the fertility rate saw a sharp drop (as the Lost Decade was a significant shift in company behavior).  However, the fertility rate was dropping for 20 years before the crash.

http://www.un.org/esa/population/public … /japan.pdf

Explanation?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

24 (edited by Xeno 27-Feb-2017 20:31:24)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

The Great Eye wrote:

The first is "cannibalism exists in this pile of countries we're talking about, so let's talk about other regions

The problem is racism, on your part.  In your racism, you assumed we were talking about certain counties today.  I was not.  I was discussing societal collapse as a sociological phenomenon in general as it might occur in ANY country among people of any race.

The Great Eye wrote:

The second, more egregious instance, is insinuating that the cannibalism was a premeditated, calculated part of the society's cycle of fertility such that it would explain high fertility rates in some of the described countries[...]

Again, I think the problem is racism on your part.  In your racism, you assumed high fertility rates in certain countries today were explicable by cannibalism. 

Again, I was discussing societal collapse in general; specifically how fertility rates MAY (not always) remain high even into latter stages of prolonged societal collapses due to cannibalism.  I was thinking the collapses of the Aztec Empire, the Roman Empire, the Tang Dynasty, sieges during medieval Europe and the Crusades, WW2, China's Great Leap 'Forward' and Cultural Revolution, etc..

What were you thinking?

The Great Eye wrote:

without providing sources

No need to give sources.  That cannibalism occurred during societal collapses is not only widely known and well-documented; it's a commonly-held fact.   It is also a well-known fact that cases of cannibalism during societal collapses often go undocumented / unreported, allowing for epistemological justification of the belief that such has occurred more so than has been documented / reported. 

It is simply a sociological fact that during societal collapses cannibalism occurs, and does so across ANY culture of ANY race.  This is indisputable.

But let's talk about cannibalism today and where it is happening.  The problem is that you assume that it is the societies with high fertility rates today that are the ones collapsing and thus resorting to cannibalism; the opposite is the case: the ones collapsing and resorting to cannibalism are the societies with low fertility rates; our so called 'developed' countries. 

Now, in the past, you didn't have a choice to NOT have children.   And so in the past people didn't have a choice to NOT to resort to ACTUALLY cannibalizing their offspring during societal collapses to ensure their own survival; today, in our societal collapses in our 'developed' countries, cannibalizing our offspring to ensure our own survival (by not having any children in the first place) has essentially become the NORM.

In our own neon-malthusian social-darwinistic societal collapse today in the 'developed' world, by 'choosing' not to have children (which isn't really a choice; look up 'inverted totalitarianism'), essentially, we feed our unborn offspring to ourselves to ensure our survival; or, more aptly, we sell our unborn offspring to feed the rich to ensure our survival. 

It really is like Rome's societal collapses, but instead of being 'encouraged' to have children by our masters (who would then take the child and sell the meat at market which would then sell it as a rare delicacy to some Roman senator or other well-to-do Roman citizen), we are systemically being 'encouraged' (again, look-up 'inverted' totalitarianism) NOT to have children and have the prosperity that would otherwise have provided for our children ending up in the hands of the rich.

In our complicity with this, we are essentially selling our unborn children to be 'cannibalized' by the rich.  During our societal collapse, people are required to get 20+ years of education / job experience before, MAYBE, if we are LUCKY, qualifying for a secure job (without which most people don't even think of starting a family); otherwise, without such education and job experience, we generally suffer chronic unemployment / underemployment and are likewise not able to support a family, and we thus suffer higher divorce rates, etc.. 

We suffer such sociological effects due to 'austerity measures' implemented due to fiscal debt crises, crises that were caused by the rich for the rich (they've made off like bandits): the low fertility rates are effectually evidence of the cannibalization of the unborn of younger generations by the rich for the rich.  The rich have been cannibalizing the unborn offspring of three generations now.  'Civil'ization is done, finished, defunct; western 'civil'ization cannot recover from this. 

The trend is to have A LOT of well-to-do people who already have or who are already able to provide for children to immigrate to the 'developed' world to increase fertility / population growth rates and thus stave-off our impending societal collapse; but this is only a technofix: this would only shift the societal collapse to the 'under-developed' world (while at the same time we brainwash them with our 'superior' standards of 'education': neo-malthusian social-darwinism that espouses 'inverted totalitarianism' as virtuous and propagates the same ideology that brainwashed us into complicity with the cannibalization of our unborn by the rich and thus our own societal collapse).

I'll get to the rest of your response some other time.

25 (edited by Xeno 28-Feb-2017 04:01:45)

Re: Totalitarianism as true cause of the present collapse of civilization

Response continued:

The Great Eye wrote:

It's racist because perpetuating such a decisionmaking process as a thing occurring among people in the most impoverished nations:

Again, this is your racism at work, evidenced by your stated preconception that I was referring to occurrences of present-day cannibalism in underdeveloped countries.  Why would you take such a leap?  Your preconceptions are such that you assume that such nations are experiencing societal collapses when in fact they are not even remotely close to experiencing such.  In fact, it is due to your own, innate racist and imperialistic superiority complex perspective that blinds you to the fact that rather than such 'underdeveloped' nations experiencing societal collapse it is the 'developed' nations of 'western' 'civil'ization which are experiencing societal collapse, and, as aforementioned, are engaged in the systemic normalization of its own form of cannibalism, as evidenced by their LOW fertility rates, while at the same time systemically transferring their own societal collapse onto the 'underdeveloped' nations by the two-fold manner I've already explained: 1. selecting only wealthy immigrants from such regions 2. imposing 'standards' of education that propagate the very neo-malthusian social darwinistic ethos that exacerbated the societal collapse of 'western' 'civil'ization and now will do the same in the 'underdeveloped' world. 

And all the while is virtually ignored in the 'west' the morally exemplary ways such 'underdeveloped' nations make FAR more efficient use of available resources by which to maintain high fertility rates and maintain their vibrant REAL economy.

We in the 'developed' 'civil'ized western nations really have no clue, brainwashed as we are by 'inverted totalitarianism' - an innately racist, imperialistic, social-darwinist / neo-malthusianist ethos propagated by our 'superior' education system.  So clearly have you demonstrated that you are a product of such an ethos, 'The Great Eye'.

The Great Eye wrote:

A: Is factually incorrect absent some evidence to the contrary, as the food required to raise a child would be more than the food that would even be obtained from such a process (i.e., it would not actually be effective to do what was described in times of desperation)

Again, the problem is that you misunderstood that I was referring to well-documented (albeit under-reported) historical occurrences of cannibalism among any / all peoples (regardless of race) that suffer societal collapses.  I mentioned that fertility rates MAY remain high even in late stages of prolonged societal collapses due to cannibalism. This was really a side-point.  But for some reason you have focused on this. You apparently saw this as 'racist' misunderstanding this is simply a sociological fact pertaining to the HUMAN condition (regardless of race); that you saw it as a racial issue is indicative of your own underlying aforementioned inately racist, social-darwinist, neo-malthusianist preconceptions. 

The Great Eye wrote:

B: Creates a false impression that would, if accepted as true, justify readers to view those poor people as something less than human.

Again, why would this even occur to you?  Why do you think other people would get such an impression?  Answer: because you adhere to the aforementioned social-darwinistic, neo-malthusianistic perspective hat would vilify such people.  If you adhere to a neo-malthusian, social-darwinistic perspective and are the beneficiary of the societal collapse that such people are suffering you can and in some cases must vilify such people.  Do you benefit from the present societal collapse of 'western civilization'?  Evidently so.  Do you benefit from their deplorable circumstances of others and use such the aforementioned ethos to justify your having such relative prosperity to theirs and at their expense? 

If so, you can and in some cases must think that those people who are in such deplorable circumstances that must resort to cannibalism do so willfully and are therefore less than human, and not worthy of sympathy or help.  And you, yourself, because you are 'civilized' and thus less 'primitive', more 'human', more 'educated', more 'evolved', etc., etc., ad nauseam - YOU aren't the same species as them, and hence their suffering, even to the extent that they resort to cannibalism, and even if it is to your direct benefit, is justified, because, after all, it's the 'survival of the fittest', right?  In adherence to your social-darwinistic, neo-malthusian ethos, their suffering is all their own doing and they and their gene-pool is better-off 'culled' for humanity's sake, right?  This is the neo-malthusian, social-darwinistic ethos at work, apparently, in yourself, The Great Eye.

Why did it even occur to you that those stricken by famine or those taken captive to work in forced labor camps, simply because they resorted to cannibalism to survive, would / should be vilified?  Would you pay no heed to the DURESS people are under when facing survival or certain death?  Would you regard their actions as purely WILLFUL?

You apparently do:

Zarf wrote:

if those people are willing to slaughter their own children like cattle, not out of a momentary act of desperation, but as part of a calculated process of filicide that parents opt to engage in against their own children over the course of months... the average reader may conclude that the problem isn't simply poverty, but that those individuals (the poor you characterize) are simply morally depraved, beyond help.  "They're cannibals" is one of the first lies that has historically been spewed to dehumanize those in impoverished regions of the world and subsequently justify European imperialism.  Not that I'm saying cannibalism doesn't exist... but you have to pull evidence and be damn specific when hurling things out like that.

How could you possibly think anyone would WILLFULLY do such a thing?  I never did.  The context of SOCIETAL COLLAPSE was clear all along.  DURESS was the context all along.  What is wrong with you?

Societal collapses can last decades.

X(

Again, I'll get to the rest of your response some other time...