Topic: Fam Bank VL tag

Hi,

I have been thinking of how to make it more clear for family who is Fam bank, and I thought it would be helpful to make it a VL tag like Fleet admiral. Specific benefits

1) no decay
2) has 20% op and spell defense against opposing forces
3) allows you to move gc (just gc) from one person to another


thoughts?

My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness

                          -2 Corinthians 12:9

2 (edited by Xeno 03-Feb-2017 05:42:17)

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

I like it.

What the Fam Bank tag could be is the start to creating AI player accounts.

What the Fam Bank could be to start is a very basic AI player account that is only a fund and provides for an internal fam market.

A player tagged with the Fam Bank simply gets access to that AI account a fam's to adjust certain settings or do some manual transactions.

Players would get the 'option' to aid-in automatically to that AI account rather than the player who is tagged as Fam Bank. Players could select how much (like what percent of which resource or GC) and how often (every tick, every 5 ticks, etc.).  This would simply be an option; they wouldn't 'have to' aid in automatically.  Players could still to do so manually (as it is now).  So all this would be is adding an 'option'.

Adjustable automatic or AI settings of the Fam Bank might include:

1. aiding-out to any and / or all fams needing GC upkeep each tick.
2. automatically trading on galactic market as per a set of algorithms to be selected
3. auto-allocating % of funds to DS fund (where funds are 100% safe from ops BTW)
4. determining the % of GC or resources an individual player might be entitled to 'withdraw' from the fam bank (be it GC or resources).  A player could send a request for X amount of GC or resources.  Whether or not X amount of GC or resources could be auto-authorized would depend on whether or not that player had previously contributed an equivalent value or more of said GC or resources previously.  Additionally, the value the player would be entitled to would be determined on the gains that his deposit had 'earned' since he had deposited it.  This would take into account the market prices of the resources 'deposited' to the fam bank at the time they had been deposited, the present market prices of said resources when requested by the player, and any 'interest' or 'capital gains' made on the deposit that the AI fam bank had earned on behalf of the player since that amount of resources had been deposited.  Example: say a player deposited 5k iron to the fam bank when the galactic buy bid price for iron was 10 GC / unit.  Over the course of holding that 5k iron, the fam bank AI had invested it (in many ways) on the galactic market and doubled its relative value over the course of 24 ticks.  Additionally, the galactic buy bid price for iron had risen to 15 GC / unit over that period.  In this case, the player would be auto-authorized to withdraw 150,000 GC for the 5 k iron he had deposited a mere 24 ticks earlier (the present value of his initial investment of 5 k iron has become 10k iron @ 15 GC per unit).

This extent of AI could get very complex, but it is feasible.  Again, it would be merely an 'option' that players and fams would be able to choose to use or not. (There could be other 'options' using aspects of AI, all depending on the extent to which AI is developed for this game).

Fams that don't want to use the Fam Babk system could still benefit without the tag even applied to anyone by having the AI account simply act as a 'no fee' internal fam market.

There are many other possibilities, all depending on what other 'options' are added to the game rather than totalitarian restrictions imposed on players and fams.

Translucent wrote:

1) no decay
2) has 20% op and spell defense against opposing forces
3) allows you to move gc (just gc) from one person to another

I like 1, 2, but not 3.

Forcing players to provide access of their GC to the Fam Bank would be a totalitarian measure.  I'm against it. Period.

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

sounds like a pretty drastic change to me.  1 and 2 seems to change the game just for the sake of changing the game. (doesn't fix any inherit problem) 3 kinda gets at inactive players. 

How about instead having a fam bank that isnt a player, but rather just a pool players can donate into.  Players could donate into the fam bank and can take cash/resources from the bank based off of their tag.  (having no tag cant withdraw from the bank, VL/Fleet admiral have total access)

4 (edited by Xeno 03-Feb-2017 06:43:42)

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

Devillived wrote:

(having no tag cant withdraw from the bank, VL/Fleet admiral have total access)

Players will need to have the 'option' to withdraw from the bank what they are ACTUALLY entitled to.  Only AI could determine this.

There would be a lot of fams with SS players, fams operating with a team-based system, or fams operating in a totally decentralized fashion that doesn't use a fam bank at all but would use an in-fam market system. 

An AI Fam Bank system as described above with players playing as 'individuals' could allow them to have the access to the GC / Resources that they are ACTUALLY entitled to while at the same time allow them to support the fam leaders as they see fit.

This would be more appealing to many players including fam leaders; having AI fam bank system where individual players can withdraw their support and decide to go SS or form a team instead keep fam leaders in check.  Fam leaders know they need checks.  It is certainly better than having a fam leadership going off all totalitarianistic on players who like to play as individuals or teams.  The arbitrary and faulty decision-making of fam leaders often ruins rounds for individual players.  A lot of them get fed up, and leave, or become inactive.

Fam bank systems end up allowing leaders to abuse / misuse the other individual's players' resources.  Leaders forget it is not their or the 'Fam's' GC and resources.  It's the individual players' GC and resources, and individual players who contribute are entitled to it back if leaders mess up. 

If leaders blowing it on fools' errands or for dishonorable farming campaigns... this a lot of players see as a betrayal, and they see their round ruined, become inactive, etc..  Giving individual players the 'option' to get back what they contributed and have some fun for the rest of the round with it is better for the game; the alternative is going inactive.

That said, players would support their leaders if they don't abuse their GC and resources.  In this case, they wouldn't request from the Fam Bank what they might be entitled to, only what they need, and voluntarily leave what they don't need up to the fam's leaders to decide what to do with it.

About inactives: a lot of players don't like logging in 20 times / day.  A lot of players want to play a game where their 'empire' functions well, grows, protects itself automatically in some ways, does some retakes automatically even, AND supports the fam leaders automatically as well.  An AI fam bank system with players able to auto-aid to fam bank portions of their GC and resources as the individual players see fit would attract players, especially if individual players are entitled to withdraw what they had contributed when leaders had mess-up or done some dishonorable farming, etc..

Being so empowered by both AI and their entitlement to their own GC and resources when and if they see fit would HELP with inactivity and keep leaders in check.

Inactives want an empire that does stuff on its own as if it is its own entity, in spite of not logging in for a couple of days.  Most people don't want to have to micro-manage things every few hours.  This would attract new players.  AI is the way to go.  It's also necessary to open up the game development for more modes or 'options' of game-play.

5 (edited by Devillived 03-Feb-2017 08:29:22)

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

Im agreeing with you on the AI bank, I think would be a much better option than a player run one.  I dont think being able to withdrawal the amount you donated is necessary.  What if someone else withdrawals everything before you get a chance to withdrawal what you donated?  You still wont be able to get your resources back. 

You also arent required to donate anything into the fam bank.  If you are expecting something in return, then dont donate. If you are donating to the bank, I'm assuming that means you have extra resources that you arent using right away and whoever needs it can take it.  The only reason why i wouldnt want ANYONE to be able to take the resources is cause if some random joins your fam and is trying to get into another fam, they can empty our your fam bank and delete.

Edit: Should also be able to keep track of the transactions for the fam bank.  And the more i think about this, the more awesome of an idea i think this is.  Any chance this can get implemented?  Also curious what more people think.

6 (edited by Xeno 04-Feb-2017 00:30:59)

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

Devillived wrote:

What if someone else withdrawals everything before you get a chance to withdrawal what you donated?  You still wont be able to get your resources back. [...]The only reason why i wouldnt want ANYONE to be able to take the resources is cause if some random joins your fam and is trying to get into another fam, they can empty our your fam bank and delete.

This would not be possible.  Only Fam banker / leader can do this, and even then the individual players are still entitled to whatever amount of their contributions that the fam banker or leader has withdrawn.  I will explain how it works...

The AI Bank would be tracking each individual players' contribution of funds and gains made on the market by those funds to calculate what amount an individual player would be entitled to withdraw from the fund at any time.

The AI would make gains for the individual players according to different algorithms including (but not limited to):

1. low risk / low yield
2. high risk /high yield
3. short time horizon / long time horizon 
4. investment priorities (such as which resources or percentages of types of resources / GC to be gained)
5  ...

These could be adjustable by the individual player himself or the individual player could allow the player tagged as the fam banker to adjust such variables on his behalf.   The individual player could opt to allow a portion of his contributions to be self managed and another portion to be managed by the fam banker.  Only the funds that have been allocated to be managed by the fam banker can be withdrawn by the fam banker / fam leader.  A tight knit fam would have each player allocating 100% of their contributions to be managed by the fam banker.

But even those funds that the individual player has allocated to be managed by the fam banker are available to be withdrawn by the individual player at any time.  They can only withdraw what they are entitled to withdraw, however.  The AI determines the amounts each player has contributed to the fund and the gains each individual player's investments have made.

Of course, if the player wanted a large sum, the funds probably wouldn't be available right away.  The AI might have to do some trading to come up with the funds requested.  This might take some time (hopefully only a few ticks).  Nevertheless, the individual player, if entitled to that large sum, would receive it as soon as possible. 

When a request for funds is received by the AI, it becomes the priority of the AI to fulfill that request first and foremost.

With all this said, the fam banker has access to everything at all times.  If he wanted, he could withdraw everything from the market at any time.  This, however, doesn't mean the players who had contributed previously aren't still entitled to what they had contributed.  They certainly still are so entitled.

Why would the fam banker withdraw all funds?  Is he robbing the individual players of their contributions?  Hope not.  Presumably, the fund manager would do this for a good reason: war, and a profitable one at that.  He's hoping to get many players many more planets.  The fam banker passes all funds available to the fam's main attacker who build's up his  fleet: in doing so, the attacker is essentially taking-out a loan from the other players.  The loan is the amount needed to build and upkeep the fleet. 

This better be a PROFITABLE venture: the attacker will hopefully nab planets, and, presumably, pass them to the bankers / resourcers.   In passing the planets to bankers / resources, the players taking the planets are essentially accepting a payment on the loan they provided the attacker via the fam bank.  Once the planet is taken-over by the resourcer or banker, the transaction is considered complete.  The banker / resourcer is essentially withdrawing a contribution from what he contributed to the fam bank by taking the planet and the attacker is essentially paying off a portion of the loan he took from the individual players to build his fleet.

The AI calculates the value of such transactions.  The value of the planet is determined by the average galactic market long-term investment horizon value of the resources or income that can be expected to be gained by the player owning and building the planet.  This 'planet value' amount is DEDUCTED from the amount that the banker or resourcer taking the planet had contributed to the fam bank.  And so there is some risk involved in 'accepting the planet'.  Banker's / resourcers should only accept planets secured by main attacker's portal(s), and thus are planets they think they can keep / defend. 

In some cases the the banker or resourcer might be go into debt to the fam bank by taking a planet he isn't able to keep.

The attacker is paying off a portion of his loan immediately by passing the planet.  Just as the banker or resourcer taking the planet is essentially making a withdrawal from the fam bank by taking the planet, so too is the attacker essentially making a deposit to the fam bank by passing the planet.

The AI calculates the passing of a planet as a paying back the individual fam members who had contributed the funds necessary for the attacker to build his fleet. The AI takes into account the value of the planets passed and deducts contributions in the amount of the value of the planet from that player's contributions to the fam bank, thus making funds available for the players who didn't take any planets.

It all works, just needs encoding.

Edit: oh, and in addition to auto 'depositing' to fam bank, there would be auto-withdrawing from fam bank, such that an attacker could set up to 'auto-withdraw upkeep as needed' each tick.  And a pop banker could 'auto-withdraw food as needed' each tick.  Etc...

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

I think the AI would be bad, as it defeats the purpose of having people on to distribute funds. We dont want to take responsibility away from players.

My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness

                          -2 Corinthians 12:9

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

We've discussed a tag like this before for banks, the issue is that only the leader is capable of changing tags. If the bank changes while the leader is offline, there's no way to let people know that the tag isn't updated which could cause issues with people aiding to someone who is actually offline.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

Xeno's method is way too complicated imo.  Probably would take a while to code.  I would suggest just having a guild storage where everyone can donate into the pool and only people with fleet admiral, VL, (or some new tag) will be able to withdrawal from the pool.  Also probably need to make something so when one player gets destroyed iron/cash, it also takes that percent from the bank.

So it basically is useful for the beginning of the round mostly and not later in the round, but that's when it is most important to have resources passed anyways.

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

@Undeath

that is why it is important for leader to be on. Could you open it to allow VL to assign the fam bank?

My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness

                          -2 Corinthians 12:9

11 (edited by Xeno 15-Feb-2017 23:35:53)

Re: Fam Bank VL tag

devillived wrote:

Xeno's method is way too complicated imo.

It would be complicated to encode, for sure, but would be simple for players to use.  By using it, players would soon understand it easily.