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Topic: Supernova Start

With everyone all occupied with uni news for Starburst, now is the time to tell me all your secret strategies for start of round in Supernova! I think I'll play next round in SN instead of SB and I'm working on a starting strategy. If I get it fine tuned in time and it works as expected and puts me at #1 eco a couple days in, then I'll share it with everyone. Until then, what's the general way to start? The only solo galaxy I've played in before was Virgo so I don't know what the basic mindset is.

Specifically:

- How do people usually time their explo waves at the beginning?
- Is it worth it to build wizards for SA on the 2nd and 3rd wave of ships?
- Do people get portals set up by other people's cores before the 4 days before fighting is up?
- How soon should RCs be introduced?

Starting res is 500k gc, 19k iron, 12.5k food, 1250 oct, and 2.5k endu, right?

It's disappointing to see less strategy analysis with numbers and spreadsheets and all that in the forums. I doubt everything is completely optimized, so let's get it going again!

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

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2 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 08-Oct-2016 14:25:38)

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Re: Supernova Start

My general start :
- dump 110k gc into construction science
- 250 CF on home planet
- queue 8 expo
- cast sa at first tick
- delete all fleet at first tick
- explore 38 for first wave
- let first 15 ships land at same tick to make use of 35% construction

Main reason for funding science is that your buildings finish faster. If mf and rf are ready 3 ticks faster than competition than you can start building sooner.

Avoid shares. In expo there are little portals.  You can just do long ranged attacks directly into cores.

Built RC right from the start, but not in the very first built. Try to get 20% RC.

Start of with around
1300cf
220 mf
20hf
40rf

Timing expo waves
- 30 to 40 per batch
- always use sa
- my second wave is usually very late.  Day 6 or something as I am doing some raiding to get to 60 planets first and want to negotiate with neighbors to secure my wave.

At the end of the 4 days you want to have 4 portals. 3 around your core and 1 outpost. Note, cores kick in in 3 days,  so you ignore defence on 20 planets or something.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

We are going to need at least 1 guy to not do this build. That way the rest of us have someone to farm all round.

Parva sub ingenti

(The small under the protection of the great)

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Re: Supernova Start

I only learned one thing - drop 110k into con % - normally I build up, save some for building later and drop what I think I can afford into science. Normally have about 15-20% con for building first wave, but 35% would double my building ability.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

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Re: Supernova Start

Almost forgot. 26 hours before attack delay is lifted,  full save for units.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

don't go inactive.
I screwed up my last round pretty bad and I had more nw from infra alone then most pplz total nw.

if u wanna win size, don't get infra nor research and just expo, expo, expo and skirmish a lil with pplz with more planets/nw then you.
if you're going for nw, go pop(and do it right don't be a scrub like 99.9% of poppers), I don't think it's really viable unless u nap everyone(which is prolly possible), you won't be able to fight back at all cuz morale but I think it'd be funny.

really depends on what your goal is.

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Re: Supernova Start

Thanks for the advice, Lightguns! Sorry it took me a while to look at everything and reply. I definitely agree with sending 38 explores at tick 6 and waiting to do large waves of explores. I don't see how the research from tick one pays off though. Even with only 115 CFs at start, your NW at tick 7 when explores land would be about 1700, so con=28 if you put 110k gc in at tick one, less if you build 240 CF. This doesn't come close to paying for itself with the first wave of building, and values res at over 100gc if you take into account the two ticks faster mines and refineries finish building. The con quickly drops back to 2 when new planets are added to NW, so it doesn't help after the first wave either.

I don't see the reasoning behind building more than 115 CFs at the start, since you are gated by resources for building later when you are waiting for mines/rfs and not cash, so you get some mines and rfs 7 ticks earlier if you build some on home planet. I also think it would be better to do slightly fewer CFs in the first wave for this reason as well.

Again, I haven't played SN before so I might be wrong about all of this.

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

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Re: Supernova Start

DustyAladdin wrote:

Thanks for the advice, Lightguns! Sorry it took me a while to look at everything and reply. I definitely agree with sending 38 explores at tick 6 and waiting to do large waves of explores. I don't see how the research from tick one pays off though. Even with only 115 CFs at start, your NW at tick 7 when explores land would be about 1700, so con=28 if you put 110k gc in at tick one, less if you build 240 CF. This doesn't come close to paying for itself with the first wave of building, and values res at over 100gc if you take into account the two ticks faster mines and refineries finish building. The con quickly drops back to 2 when new planets are added to NW, so it doesn't help after the first wave either.

I don't see the reasoning behind building more than 115 CFs at the start, since you are gated by resources for building later when you are waiting for mines/rfs and not cash, so you get some mines and rfs 7 ticks earlier if you build some on home planet. I also think it would be better to do slightly fewer CFs in the first wave for this reason as well.

Again, I haven't played SN before so I might be wrong about all of this.

You should ask the Grand Nagus. He will tell you how to do a perfect build for a fee, of course -- 5 bars of Gold-Pressed Latinum or 2 years servitude at the bar on DS9. cool

Parva sub ingenti

(The small under the protection of the great)

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Re: Supernova Start

At least 5 players invested at least 110k in science this round.

Will see if I can find some time to do the math.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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10 Reply by LG

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Re: Supernova Start

don't forget farms! i do every round

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11 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 13-Oct-2016 23:42:15)

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Re: Supernova Start

DustyAladdin wrote:

Thanks for the advice, Lightguns! Sorry it took me a while to look at everything and reply. I definitely agree with sending 38 explores at tick 6 and waiting to do large waves of explores. I don't see how the research from tick one pays off though. Even with only 115 CFs at start, your NW at tick 7 when explores land would be about 1700, so con=28 if you put 110k gc in at tick one, less if you build 240 CF. This doesn't come close to paying for itself with the first wave of building, and values res at over 100gc if you take into account the two ticks faster mines and refineries finish building. The con quickly drops back to 2 when new planets are added to NW, so it doesn't help after the first wave either.

I don't see the reasoning behind building more than 115 CFs at the start, since you are gated by resources for building later when you are waiting for mines/rfs and not cash, so you get some mines and rfs 7 ticks earlier if you build some on home planet. I also think it would be better to do slightly fewer CFs in the first wave for this reason as well.

Again, I haven't played SN before so I might be wrong about all of this.

The math for investing in science is actually quite simple.

110K GC is 22% of your 500K GC, yet when your expo's hit you will have more than 30% construction bonus (making things 23% cheaper).
- In terms of GC nothing happend. You have 22% less GC, but everything got around the same amount cheaper
- in terms of resources you have a relative advantage of 23%. This results in having more endu left after your first built (to queue RC next ticks when you wait for MF to hit)
- Your buildings will be built earlier (CF hit 1 tick earlier), MF and RF hit 2 or 3 ticks earlier. When they hit your construction advantage is gone, but you can now built the same as the rest of the galaxy only 2 ticks earlier and you have an extra tick CF income.
- There is actually also a GC advantage of having less bureacracy durign those first 6 ticks


Note:
- at tick 6 your NW will be around 2150.
- Your construct will be above 30% (quazian has 50% research bonus).
- When you explore planets the 800 NW will only hit the tick after exploration. You can 38 planets at 2150 NW just for a tick.
- Building 250 CF directly pays of because of faster income, less bureaucracy and because sor is gc heavy (expos are expensive).

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

I forgot about the 50% research bonus... Yeah I think agree with you on that now. The numbers weren't way too far off of it being worth it without the bonus. I still think it's better to have some mines and refineries start on your home planet for exactly the reason that cfs pay for themselves so fast. You can build those faster on new planets if you start making resources faster. Anyway, I screwed up my start a little since I missed the first tick and was on my phone so a couple explores failed. I hadn't finished my plan yet anyway so I'll see another time!

Question: I know the 800 NW/planet only hits the tick after, but what about NW from pop on new planets?

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

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Re: Supernova Start

Pop nw also hits a tick later. That is why your pop count in hq differs from the total pop in your planet screen.

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~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

Interesting case Lightguns. I would like to add the following though:

Building 250 CFs will result in a 33% construction bonus after 8 ticks (when eships land)
Building 115 CFs will result in a 42% construction bonus after 8 ticks

Income deficit = 1.485 gc/tick * 8 ticks = 11.880 gc

For 11.880gc you're willing to sacrifice you'll get 9% extra construction bonus, which will make building 6.3% cheaper compared to the 250CF start strategy.

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15 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 09-Dec-2016 10:42:31)

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Re: Supernova Start

I optimized for built time. To bring 5 ticks down to 4 you need 25% construct. To bring 12 ticks down to 9 you need 33,3% construct.

If you want to bring down 12 ticks to 8 you need over 50% construction.

Haven't checked if there is an optimum between 33,3% and 50%. Main point was that funding is useful. Your suggestion might be something I'll try.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

It will certainly not decrease the building time from 9 to 8.

But its cost reduction is certainly worth the slower start.

You will have about this left after building 115 CF, 8 eships and exploring:

395.000 gc
17.600 iron
2.500 endu

Comparison between what you'll be able to build funding 110k with 250CFs and funding with 115CFs (both with savings listed above)

(No science) - 250CF start vs. 115 CF start
(1400 CF) - 1862 CFs vs. 1988 CFs
(875 MF) - 1163 MFs vs. 1242 MFs
(175 RS) - 233 RS vs. 248 RS

In return for 11k gc this is not bad.

* Note1: don't mind the building's ratio's, they are merely serving the purpose of calculating the difference.
* Note2: the difference will be even larger, since your savings will be smaller in the case of 250CFs. But again: Just serving its purpose of making a comparison.

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Re: Supernova Start

The deficit is btw not 11,8k

125 c.f.  difference makes 1500 gc/ tick. With 8 ticks deficit it would add up to 12k. That is assuming you need 4 ticks after first built to queue your next wave of cf.

If  your expos come on tick 6, your expos arrive tick 7 you could queue c.f.  on new planets at tick 7. When you queue those additional cf on home planet at tick 4, they will come in at tick 8. This would reduce the deficit to 3 ticks and let you use max construct bonus because you are mass building at tick 7.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

125 CF * (8 * 1,5 - 1)= 1375gc (8 times 1375gc is 11k gc) - you left the building cost out.

If you want all eships to land same tick, I think it is more realistic they land at tick 8 rather than tick 7. This does not change anything about the comparison between 115CF and 250CF start.

Apart from that, the addition is interesting, but I wonder if it's feasible. You can check this before round starts, but you'd have to be very lucky. That is why I suggest:

Stall your first build with one tick (no... i'm not crazy. My mother had me tested).

Your first CFs (115) will come in 1 tick later (1375gc collateral), but the remaining 135 will come in 4 ticks earlier (5940 gc).

You can do the math: 4565 free gc.

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Re: Supernova Start

Talk about micro management, lol. I am going to setup a spreadsheet to see how this works.

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

Do you think we answered the original question?

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21 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 09-Dec-2016 13:52:29)

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Re: Supernova Start

That is something Dusty or you may answer. I think this is worth doing. It introduces a lot of failure points in the first 9 ticks smile

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~Defending is an Art~

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22 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 15-Dec-2016 01:07:14)

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Re: Supernova Start

After some excel wizardry. My new start for this round:

Tick 1
- Invest 163K GC in construction science (that is 33% of your starting GC)
- Cast SA
- Built 115 CF
- Kill all units
- No expo building smile

Tick 2
- your construct science will hit 20,6%
- queue 8 expo ships (they will finish in 5 ticks in stead of 6)

Tick 3 - Tick 4
- wait

Tick 5
- queue 125 CF at your home planet at 49% construct (they take 4 ticks to finish and should finish after your expos arrive)

Tick  6
- CF Batch 1 finishes
- sent 30 expos that will land in 2 ticks

Tick 7
- 8 expos come in, sent 8 expos

Tick 8
- first expo's arrive (make sure early on to have at least 15 landing)
- Built 15 planets
- you will have 58% construction science (making things 37% cheaper)

Tick 9
- second batch CF on home planet finish (compared to 250 CF start you have an income deficit in ticks 7 and 8 which totals at 3K (0,6% of starting GC), but this is wel compensated by the cheaper building you did.


Tick 12
- third wave of CF come one (queued at tick 8)


Tick 16
- ressies come in (4 ticks earlier than most of your opponents



Conclusion, about start:
- cuts the arrival of ressies with 4 ticks
- gives you a net GC advantage of 37%-33%-0,06% = 3,4% on starting GC
- gives you a net resource advantage of 37% on starting resources
- don;t screw up in ticks 2, 6, 7 and 8

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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23 Reply by LiGhTGuNs (edited by LiGhTGuNs 19-Feb-2017 00:38:58)

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Re: Supernova Start

Thought of a new optimization smile

Tick 1:
*new: invest 168000 in construction

Tick 7:
sent expos
*new:  delete the 115 cf that finished last tick smile


The CF deleting drops your NW down to 1196 and cranks your research up to 66,7%.

Rebuilding those 115 CF costs: 8300
Income los will be 4 ticks: and equals 115 * 12* 4 = 5520

This total loss of 13,8K gets well compensated by:
- cheaper building
- less resources needed in your built. And thus more resources are kept in stock for building.
- the CF you queue next tick will finish in 3 ticks instead of 4. Assuming around 1400 CF thats 16,8K income you get 1 tick earlier (and thus extra) compared to the rest of the galaxy (this alone already compensates the effort).

Tick 8
- first expo's arrive (make sure early on to have at least 15 landing)
- Built 15 planets
- you will have 66,7% construction science (making things 40% cheaper)

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

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Re: Supernova Start

Im back playing on LG G4 i got 4gb per month i will dedicate hopfully its enough.

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Re: Supernova Start

Last time i had to leave no internet but this time i think my phone can handle it

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