Topic: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

I would say that most players would agree that the biggest issue in the game now is the combat system. I've only been back for a handful of rounds after a long break but I think I've gained a pretty good understanding of the game as it is now. I've been in fams that have finished first, in the middle, and at the bottom of the rankings in these last few months, so my perspective will be one someone with a decent overview of the different sides of the game, but certainly not the most experienced one.

Firstly, it REALLY seems like the NAP everyone and win strategy is actually the most effective way to a top finish. Avoiding conflict (yes, name of the game pun) at all costs and being highly selective in who you fight and when is absolutely key to remaining at the top of the rankings. Any sort of fighting early in the round (first week or two) is extremely destructive since it is nearly impossible to set up a defense that can hold off an attacker/family that is dedicated on raiding. It is also not feasible to hold these planets so the only goal is razing infra and setting the other family back without gaining anything other than negotiating power. My family in this round of Starburst got off to a really rough start since negotiations went south after the other family's leader could not recognize just how defenseless families are at the beginning of the round. Once raiding starts it seems to quickly devolve into a vicious cycle that leaves both families at the bottom of the rankings and in quite a hole to climb out of for the rest of the round. I've heard plenty of explanations about how the game is called Imperial CONFLICT and not Imperial infra-whoring to belittle people who want NAPs. The goal of the game is to get the most planets and fighting very early in the round really doesn't help achieve this goal.

Thankfully, it seems like the vast majority of the player base abides by more rules than the ones currently explicitly implemented in the game. I have been very happy that I have seen not one instance of egregious vulturing. Families seem to leave families at war alone to fight. Farming only seems to happen semi-infrequently and most people actively try to avoid ruining others' rounds. It would be great if the game didn't have to rely on the high standards of players though.

I'd like to lay out a couple of the ideas that I think would help address these problems. They mostly target things that happen in the first half of the round (before the end of the exploration phase).


1. More spaced out systems in the galaxy.

This doesn't need to mean any more or less systems or planets. I think most early aggression is a result of some families starting with home systems that are very close together. The rounds my families have done better in were ones where we did not fight early in the round and did not have to think about other families' cores encroaching upon my own until later. More space between home systems means more time until fighting is necessary and less variance in the "quality" of starting positions on the map between families. The galaxy could be changed to 100x100 instead of 80x80 but with the same number of systems and planets.


2. Higher morale cost closer to the beginning of the round.

Morale really doesn't kick in at all until a couple weeks into the round. I don't think raiding bankers early should be nearly as easy as it is now. The morale cost for attacking could be 2-3 times the normal cost at the beginning of the round and slowly decrease until reaching the normal cost around the halfway point of the round. This wouldn't affect normal wars. It would just make it so that fewer planets would be involved in raids early in the round.


3. Make portals cheaper

As an attacker, finding out a banker is almost completely unportalled is VERY exciting. However, it does come with a moral (morale? haha I get a kick out of myself sometimes) quandary. When a family has multiple undefended bankers more than a couple weeks into the round, as a small attacker in a smaller family, you have the ability to pmode multiple bankers in a day or two. I haven't been able to make myself undo over a week of work from a family by doing this and have stopped in favor of peace after only some of the possible damage. If portals were cheaper, the extreme vulnerability period would end sooner in the round. It would also raise the incentive for bankers to take a break from building infra and dedicating the time to building portals since it would be easier to get fully portalled. I don't think this would deter fighting later in the round in any way. I don't fully understand why portals cost as much as they do. I wouldn't recommend changing the time to construct portals or the scaling with the number of planets owned.


4. Everyone seems to have a PNAP with pretty much every other family by the end of the round.

I have no clue how to fix this. Removing PNAPs from the game would just result in the return of out of game PNAPs. Having more families and more players in the game is the only way I can think of preventing families from running out of people to attack by the end of the round (which I think somewhat encourages farming currently).


5. ??? I'd like to hear more ideas on the topic if anyone has any. At the very least, thanks to everyone who takes the time to read this.


With less fighting early in the round, I think fewer NAPs would be signed and there would be more fighting later in the round, when it is less destructive. I also find fighting that occurs after the end of the exploration phase to be much more fun and enjoyable than fighting that happens beforehand, since there is more skill and strategy involved as an attacker and there is more potential upside and less downside to the family.


-DustyAladdin

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

On the part of everyone being napped by eor.

I like the idea of making smaller fams and more of them. But then it always comes back to the argument by mods that there aren't enough capable leaders left to run more fams hmm

I_like_pie - Today at 8:18 AM
i can't resist a good dumb joke
why do you think i bought IC?

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

with only 4 players in a fam do you really need a leader?

“I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.”

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

I think I play a completely different game here...  Expo phase is THE phase to raid,  plunder,  secure position and spread. After expo we just have 4 weeks of eor.

What makes expo fun is that you can go everywhere, not everyone is napped,  resources are scarce,  and you need to built, fight,  defend all at the same time. It is a phase that is much more strategic than most think.

If you diversify stationed fleetsizes and laser count it will be very hard to raid you.

IMHO we should built on the conflict part of expo and:
Limit  amount of portals you can make
Remove pnaps and 72h naps from the game
Make rounds shorter

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

Hmmmm, how about an inverse relationship between attack bonus and portal cost. Make portals cheaper for bankers with their negative attack bonus and more expensive for attackers with their positive bonus. Would add a layer of strategy.

Insanity and genius are closely related!
*** Eltie for mod! ***
Failing Lemming of Teachings and Australian Cop Orgies: Gwynedd

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

I think that having fewer players in each family would definitely cause plenty of fams to only have a couple active members, which would make things more unbalanced. I was saying that the game needs more players and then can have more families, which would make things at least a little better.

Lightguns, I definitely agree with you in that expo phase is extremely strategic. The families that come out on top right after expo phase have a massive advantage going into the rest of the round. Unfortunately, I think the families that end up with the best infra/spread at the end of expo phase are the ones that fought the least to get there and dedicated the most to building and exploring. Building bombers is extremely expensive and definitely slows down other aspects of growth to do. The right amount of luck and politicking currently lets you avoid this. If fighting and aggressive positioning was the norm for everyone, then it wouldn't be an issue. It's definitely part of the game, but I strongly think that it's better off to be avoided if possible.

People seem to take it personally when their families are attacked. If my family gets raided, I definitely want to go and raid them back. Even later on, just a couple of attacks is seen as very provocative. I agree that there are plenty of ways to defend yourself by diversifying defenses from planet to planet, but I am continually surprised by how little this is done in the game. I also think that a very good attacker can get through no matter what early on unless you dedicate a ridiculous amount of resources to defenses, which would be a terrible decision and set you way back eco wise.

The game needs to not turn away new players to not die out. Looking at things from a n00b's perspective, I don't think it's fair for them to lose half their buildings very easily since they don't understand strategies like having different numbers of lasers and mass building to hide locations that show up in infils. I think what you're saying would be good, but only in hardcore rounds or ones that don't have new players in them.

And I like that idea a lot Gwyn.

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

Some good stuff here.

DustyAladdin wrote:

1. More spaced out systems in the galaxy.

This doesn't need to mean any more or less systems or planets. I think most early aggression is a result of some families starting with home systems that are very close together. The rounds my families have done better in were ones where we did not fight early in the round and did not have to think about other families' cores encroaching upon my own until later. More space between home systems means more time until fighting is necessary and less variance in the "quality" of starting positions on the map between families. The galaxy could be changed to 100x100 instead of 80x80 but with the same number of systems and planets.

I have mixed feelings on this one.  I think map variance is actually a good thing as it makes each round feel very different from the one before it, at least in terms of managing strategy for you and/or your family's position.

I do agree with your general point that early fighting is too destructive.  It's been that way for as long as I can remember and that definitely warrants a close look.  However, addding space to the map might end up being a bandaid and further encouraging an infra focus instead of fixing the root issue that you're pointing out.

Instead of implementing changes to reduce the chance of early conflict, we can instead lessen the impact of early conflict.

DustyAladdin wrote:

2. Higher morale cost closer to the beginning of the round.

Morale really doesn't kick in at all until a couple weeks into the round. I don't think raiding bankers early should be nearly as easy as it is now. The morale cost for attacking could be 2-3 times the normal cost at the beginning of the round and slowly decrease until reaching the normal cost around the halfway point of the round. This wouldn't affect normal wars. It would just make it so that fewer planets would be involved in raids early in the round.

I quite like this one.  Funny enough, making attacks costly might end up encouraging attacking overall while still discouraging excessive raiding.  It sounds counter intuitive but it makes sense if you consider that people avoid fighting early on specifically because of the fear of retaliation ruining their round.  If you mitigate that risk, you remove the chance of a being pummeled into obscurity during explo phase.  People may still try to avoid fighting, but it'd be more out of econ strategy than outright avoidance of risk.

Similar to #1, I think the goal isn't to discourage early attacking, but rather to encourage it by making it less devastating.  Increasing morale cost could achieve this by specifically making repeated attacks (retaliations, excessive raids) more costly.

A tricky thing worth considering is how to define the "beginning of the round".  I can see this being more a factor of explorable planets than a factor of actual time.

DustyAladdin wrote:

3. Make portals cheaper

As an attacker, finding out a banker is almost completely unportalled is VERY exciting. However, it does come with a moral (morale? haha I get a kick out of myself sometimes) quandary. When a family has multiple undefended bankers more than a couple weeks into the round, as a small attacker in a smaller family, you have the ability to pmode multiple bankers in a day or two. I haven't been able to make myself undo over a week of work from a family by doing this and have stopped in favor of peace after only some of the possible damage. If portals were cheaper, the extreme vulnerability period would end sooner in the round. It would also raise the incentive for bankers to take a break from building infra and dedicating the time to building portals since it would be easier to get fully portalled. I don't think this would deter fighting later in the round in any way. I don't fully understand why portals cost as much as they do. I wouldn't recommend changing the time to construct portals or the scaling with the number of planets owned.

Nice pun!  I lke this one.  It's a good example of what I've been pushing so far: not discouraging attacking outright but just making it less devastating early on.

Early conflict would be more manageable if you could more quickly ensure that your bankers are adequately protected.

DustyAladdin wrote:

4. Everyone seems to have a PNAP with pretty much every other family by the end of the round.

I have no clue how to fix this. Removing PNAPs from the game would just result in the return of out of game PNAPs. Having more families and more players in the game is the only way I can think of preventing families from running out of people to attack by the end of the round (which I think somewhat encourages farming currently).

I am critical of P-NAPs, and would like to see them go away.  I don't think out-of-game agreements are such a bad thing.  Yes, there's an element of trust/risk involved but that's part of what should be making the game exciting.  If people end up violating them then so be it, and maybe players will learn that there's no such thing as a gaurunteed P-NAP (if we remove it in-game) and be forced to further invest in defensive strategy even towards the end.

Right now I think P-NAPs act as a crutch and allow players/families to coast into the rankings.  This makes sense to get the best chance of winning, but it also makes the game boring.  No family should ever be 100% safe from anybody in my opinion.  Any NAP should always be cancellable.

DustyAladdin wrote:

With less fighting early in the round, I think fewer NAPs would be signed and there would be more fighting later in the round, when it is less destructive. I also find fighting that occurs after the end of the exploration phase to be much more fun and enjoyable than fighting that happens beforehand, since there is more skill and strategy involved as an attacker and there is more potential upside and less downside to the family.

This is where I disagree again, partially.  I think the intended goal here makes sense (fewer NAPs, more fighting later) but the means (discouraging early attacks) might be another form of a bandaid instead of a proper fix.  If early fighting is too devastating, we can make it less so and the players' strategies for war and politics will adjust accordingly.

Great thoughts.  Much appreciated.

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Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

Removing all naps is the only way to fix the game

~Cells~

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

CELLS wrote:

Removing all naps is the only way to fix the game


I agree 100%.

[13:43] <@RisingDown> never thought i'd say it, but TBO actually did something useful.
[13:43] <@arsy> dont let him see you say that
[13:43] <@RisingDown> oh shit
[13:43] * You were kicked from #room by arsy (kapow!)

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

A few more things:

Random(TPF)(KT) wrote:

On the part of everyone being napped by eor.

I like the idea of making smaller fams and more of them. But then it always comes back to the argument by mods that there aren't enough capable leaders left to run more fams hmm

I agree with this idea.  Re-introducing allies may also help with this, which is on my list.

Gwynedd wrote:

Hmmmm, how about an inverse relationship between attack bonus and portal cost. Make portals cheaper for bankers with their negative attack bonus and more expensive for attackers with their positive bonus. Would add a layer of strategy.

That's an interesting one.  I do think this is somewhat achieved already via the effects of income bonus/penalty.  I'm a little wary of having an attack bonus influence cost, it might devalue income bonuses.

Still though, the concept there is intriguing.  The root idea there is that portals are more attainable for people playing defensively.  Perhaps there's some way to achieve this that isn't related to cost specifically.

DustyAladdin wrote:

The game needs to not turn away new players to not die out. Looking at things from a n00b's perspective, I don't think it's fair for them to lose half their buildings very easily since they don't understand strategies like having different numbers of lasers and mass building to hide locations that show up in infils.

This is critical.

A new player should be able to have fun, and I think that means focusing on ways to make defending easier.

Got a few bucks?  The Imperial Tip Jar is accepting contributions!

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

Yes i agree if there are naps there needs to be allies again

~Cells~

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

It would help with all these ia made outside of ic cough cough

~Cells~

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

It would help with all these ia made outside of ic

~Cells~

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

Wow, great feedback Pie! You hit the nail on the head with focusing on making early attacking less destructive, which was the main goal of my first post. Maybe not allowing players to raze buildings until 24 hours after they have controlled the planet could help. You're right that reducing the ability to attack is not the only way to go about making fighting early less harmful.

To everyone who is calling for banning all NAPs, I don't think this is possible. In game NAPs weren't even a thing until some point after I last took a break from the game. The players originally came up with them outside of the framework of the game because it was advantageous to do so. They aren't going anywhere, although I do like the idea of removing PNAPs from the game so that you have that uncertainty of wondering if you're dealing with a dirty, dishonorable family if you don't go for a cancel NAP.

But man is not made for defeat. A man can be destroyed but not defeated

Re: Thoughts on Fixing the State of Combat

As destructive early battles or even wars are, nevertheless a banker who is focussing everything on making more cash at the cost of self defense is actually making.... a gamble. With luck it might succeed and the banker becomes the best cash machine or it might fail.

In a tactic & strategy game the game mechanics should never encourage gambling. Usually the discouragement is... utter catastrohpy. And to be honest, I think that's ok.

The thrilling part is to decide when to invest into what and too what extent: economy - military - research. Doing it wrongly means loosing.

So, what for a safety net then?

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.