I tink the opposition of joe ought to note that he did apologise

TU, I wouldn't say humanity is so insignificant. By our current knowledge, it seems we're quite a rare in our universe, and our planet is very special indeedy.

lol, evil potatoes

Of course it rings a bell winter, I'm alive, no one knows whether i'm kicking or not, but I at least pretend
Graduate from big ol' Texas Tech University with an M.S. Finance in May, then off to find a sweet card board box to beg out of

Joe - I'm bien, the usual for me

As to any special insight or wisdom, it isn't there, but there really is only one reason for God (existing being a given) to care about us - and that's a personal relationship and/or creation.

Ok, windowsME i think you misunderstood me.

1) Interesting statement, as near as I can tell, anyone with half a brain would recognize that "the church" is hardly a unified body....

Yes, the church is hardly unified and i just took the church as an example. Any religion that has ever been on earth has been invented by humanity.  And to say that even one of them is remotely close to what is actually going on is rediculous, the chances that your head would explode within 2 seconds would be alot bigger.

2) As for the being afraid part:

It was not invented to cast fear over people originally as i said, but to explain the things one cannot understand.
Later on (i'm speaking middle ages) it was used to control the people, and with this i mean the church in that period. Nowadays that being afraid part isn't applicable anymore indeed. But that's not even that important for my point.

The thing is, religion dates back a very long time when "people" were still living in caves.  And when they saw lightning come down from the sky, they couldn't understand what was going on so they assumed that there must be some higher force (God) responsible for it.  Nowadays we know that it is caused by electircal charges in the air and not by some higher force. In the end it all comes down to what or who created the universe, and as i said i don't deny there could be "something" that created it and is still influencing it.  But that it is indeed in the way that any of the religions that ever existed on earth described it is a very very very very small chance like i said before.

As for this force not caring about us. The way i see it he didn't specifically create us, he created the big bang, and causality made sure stars formed and planets formed and eventually life, and causality made that life evolve into the "humans" we are now. And like i said earth is insignificantly small in the entire universe, that supreme force  may have indirectly created us, but it did also create the entire universe, there might be millions of life forms across the universe, there might be millions of species much more intelligent than us. And why would this force care about these "species" any more than let's say your average star?  We are nothing more than self reproducing organisms we consist out of molecules which consists out of atoms like any other material.  I find it very arrogant to assume that "people" would be so important for this creator while the universe is so incredibly big and there's so much to see.  And do the same religious rules apply to animals?  We are animals too, we're just a tad smarter than the average animal, nothing more too it.  If you're bringing up the arguement of having a conscience, that is probably a result by our enhanced brain and our intelligence.

As a conclusion: we have no clue what is going on, we can only guess, it's like guessing a number between 0 and 1000000000 to the power of 1000000000 to the power of 10000000, and claiming that any of the people that every existed was even remotely correct about this is pure human arrogance.

ps: "TU, I wouldn't say humanity is so insignificant. By our current knowledge, it seems we're quite a rare in our universe, and our planet is very special indeedy." --> in our galaxy perhaps yes, and besides, who says there's only one universe? Scientists can't see farther than light has gone since it's been created, there might be billions of universes which we can simply never detect.

pps: @ joe "The problem here is that TU is wasting his time trying to identify God.  "God never said understand me, he just said trust me."  Given that we dont really have a choice, I will choose to trust him, rather than whine about it."  --> the problem with this is that that sentence as i said is invented by humans. To explain the things that cannot be understood by them, thus the "don't understand me, trust me" part

Evil - he sure is, not in IC, and I'm not really either, just wanted to drop by.  I might be inactive somewhere though, so be good

TU - I have a hard time believing that a supreme type being would force a "big bang" simply for pleasure and we would be the eventual accidental move out of that.

My question regarding your evolutionary accident in general stems from two issues - one, big bang happens, leading to planets, stars, whatever else.  The issue there is this:

Us evolving from a single celled organism (talk about this in a minute as well) could potentially be the 1 in 1000000^1000000000 (or whatever) accident that our ingenious pop-science has come up with, however, there seems to be a very clear law in science itself that states that life simply does not come from "not life" - rocks don't create cells, cells create cells.  If an unlimited creator set off a big bang just to make planets, stars, and watch the show - without creating life, there still would be none - not much more to it than that.  Now if we assume he made a one celled organism here and there just to see what happened, then that's cool, and we can move back to the 1 in billions of billions of a chance theorem.  However, regardless of what evolutionary steps occurred after that to who knows what species, I'd suggest than anything big enough to create a self-replicating species would enjoy watching it go - given the basically all powerful nature.

In other words, in 10 lines I just said "life doesn't come from 'not life' and thus God would have meant to do it"  (just as the quick and dirty summary)

As to the natural selection over millions of years theorem, I have a couple questions:

1) Where is the proof?  Where is the fossil record?  Where are all the strange in-betweens?  I simply don't see it, and I have a feeling I simply won't see it.  The Bible has stood up much more strongly as a historical work than the evolutionary theory, I know that - from sea fossils in the rocky mountains to the existence of Babylon, it has thus far done pretty well for itself (we could talk about all kinds of that stuff all dang day though )

2)  Lets take something interesting that I'd like to see explained: the eye.  A complex piece of equipment where none of it works if it is not complete.  Now, perhaps we changed from apes to humans, but where on earth did this thing come from.  Pre-sight, it would be a completely useless, easily infected, easily pierced aperture to the brain - post sight, it's pretty obvious in functioning.  Was this simply a one-generation, evolutionary explosion?  Long beaks - sure, DNA mutation.  Eyeball?  No... No I don't think so. 

Love to see either of those points come up, and don't google it and post a link unless I'm allowed to point out that it was probably later found to be a hoax

TU, as to us simply being over-developed animals, sure we are.  I agree completely, we're way smarter, have higher brain functions, etcetera etcetera, but here's the odd part.  On a whole, animals only take the shortest route to survival.  Humans however have a quality that cannot be summed up as  a simple larger brain function.  Now, you could say that our buildings, shelter, technology, communications, etcetera are simply a function of a larger brain enabling us to survive on another level, but what about our ability to empathize, and even further than a conscience, our ability to commit altruistic acts?  That goes beyond a more developed brain and into the realm of an entirely different stratosphere of thinking, logic, and mental ability.  So sure, we're overdeveloped animals, but we're very, very clearly different along with our advanced cerebellums

Always good evil

i am no scholar or theology major, all this time i have been reading your posts and listening to your comments, first of all we are not animals, never have been, and never will be. GOD created us in his image, we have not evolved from apes( DNA proves it, yes scientists say that we have 98% compatibility, but what about the 2%, do you know that if one gene is changed that the subject will die, so that proves that we did not evolve from animals or even a single cell creature), GOD specifically created Man for relationship, (it is not a homosexual one either), with him. when GOD created Adam he walked with him in noon time, to spend time with him,( creating a relationship with him), i know that there is by noway any thing that i an imperfect man can say to a non-believer to make him/her believe that GOD exists, but i have come to a serious  conclusion through my experiences that GOD does exist, and only GOD has the ability to make a person believe, we as ones who follow CHRIST lead people to (plant seeds, use are lives as examples, etc...), yes through the many ages after CHRISTS death and resurrection, man has corrupted and manipulated GOD's word to further their goals and ambitions for power ands wealth. Many so called Christians of today go to church on Sunday sit on their ass for one hour or four (depending on what denomination they belong to), and then go home, and on Monday do the same sin again, not having a clue about what it means to have a relationship with GOD, (some of the fault is the Shepard's that lead their flock, spouting peace, love and prosperity, there is nothing wrong with that, but remember GOD is HOLY no sin can be in his presence) the world hates Christians, why because we are suppose to be ignorant, hateful, close mindful, most cases Christians live up to that, spouting their self righteousness, pride, and judgmental attitudes, i have one thing to say how are we as Christians going to make a difference in our world if we act like that. We are supposed to act in love and generosity towards are neighbors,(who is my neighbor you may ask, people that live near you, people that live in your town or city, people that live in your country, people that live in the world, these are our neighbors. Tolerance and Christians do not mix, Christians are supposed to be intolerant       , see GOD says hate the sin not the sinner, for we do not fight against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities of darkness (i don't think i quoted that totally, but owell), i stand against the sin of homosexuality, abortion, and unrighteousness, I STAND,. Joe i dont mean this as a slam, but i think you are being misguided by your Shepard, they are clearly  not teaching GOD's truth, i suggest you find a secret place and talk to GOD and ask him to show you the truth of the matter.
TU-  i may be wrong ,but you sound like either an atheist or secular humanist, nothing against that you can believe what you want, but let me pose this to you
Say that you are right and there is no GOD then my life and others mean nothing, so i live my life full of joy and peace because of what i believe then i die and go into oblivion, but what if i         am right and when we die we go before the father, God, and he judges us for what we did with the life he gave us, how are you going to answer him, i know how i am and i dont have to fear death or the second death because of what i believe.

feed me Seymour! feed me! I like cherry cheese cake
that cherry cheese cake was good Seymour. More!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr Blue of Blue

i was never good in English class so bear with me

feed me Seymour! feed me! I like cherry cheese cake
that cherry cheese cake was good Seymour. More!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dr Blue of Blue

So much to read.. I'll get back on this later on..

[TI] The_Unknown

Can you please tell us what you mean? Please correct me if I am wrong that in your statement above (sorry, I'm only focusing on one part =P), you make these two claims

1) The Bible is inaccurate - there are holes
2) The Bible is inaccurate - historically

I believe this is what you said, but I can not be sure, can you please elaborate on those two for me? I was just a little confused there. Thank you .

*agrees with TU

The people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world are the ones that do.
If Not For The Gutter... My Mind Would Be Homeless......
ummmmm..... lemming soup!
       

Archangel, there will always be a variety of Christian perspectives, seriously =P. However, I do apologize for those that are here that are here to just mock Christianity. It is in their conscience and in their enjoyment I would guess for them that would want to do so. However, I would ask that you do keep in touch . Maybe I will see you around sometime? .