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Topic: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

Religious teachers, especially among evangelical christians, love to assert that prayer can realize a desired outcome. For example, if you want better relationships in your life, then pray to God and it will be realized. If you want to earn more money and thus live more abundantly, then pray to God and God will reward you with your desire.

Seriously, wtf?

There is only one way outcomes are realized. The physical conditions guaranteed or determined them to occur. Though outcomes can occur that we could not predict because of our own ignorance, every outcome we experience can be traced to a causal origin.

It is for this reason that religious claims of miracles and prayer are false. The truth is that if we want an outcome to be realized, then we must identify the means to realize it and act accordingly.

All this talk about prayer ---> outcome is a fraud. In fact, there is no empirical basis for this, and the only defense is a confirmation bias. Religions should be told to stfu and charged for fraud when they make such claims, and limit themselves to personal growth and right living.

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

you know IA, you need to stop being so american and reailise that everything that comes out of an american mouth, esp evangical preachers, is false.

Strangely the rest of the world pray for a better life, then goes out and idenitifies the means and then does them... prayer is not the be all and end all, but is the way to re-affirm faith in a greater being who will smile upon our actiosn so that we will get a good afterlife. God gave us free will and in doing so gave up on his right to directly effect the world.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

watch that futurama episode where bender gets to be some sort of god, it is all explanatory.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

Fool, well said.


And yeah, all Christians DO NOT just go round praying for more money or better relationships. (I can tell what you've been thinking and putting as an example.)

You'll see threads appearing from time to time relating to prayer, and people I know pray for better lives through happiness - not due to more money - and that suffering will end and so on. God isn't just going to say: "Oh, Joe is praying for some money I'll fix up his lottery numbers next draw." He knows exactly how he will reveal to each one of us the answer to our prayers.

"It is for this reason that religious claims of miracles and prayer are false. The truth is that if we want an outcome to be realized, then we must identify the means to realize it and act accordingly."
Even if only on that level, prayer will help people find a way to try and achieve an 'outcome.'


"All this talk about prayer ---> outcome is a fraud. In fact, there is no empirical basis for this, and the only defense is a confirmation bias. Religions should be told to stfu and charged for fraud when they make such claims, and limit themselves to personal growth and right living."
So I'm a fraudster for saying that every prayer I've made has been answered or an idea given? (Some are ongoing, yes, but they have to be.) As for the limiting oneself bit, what a joke! I may be missing the point, but the point about prayer is not only personal answers but answers and solutions and encouragement to anyone, friends and family who have been prayed for, and even those who are suffering around the world who have been prayed for. It's selfless.

There's no empirical evidence for Miracles? I wouldn't know that personally, but by definition, they're above empirical levels of explanation.

How about: prayer > outcome being through many possible levels, and on the most basic, maybe it's a self-mantra to be able to actually do something. Or is psychology not empirical?

In my opinion, empiricism as you've described, (and since you've said that you're a strict one,) it's a bit limiting isn't it?

"The true office of a friend is to side with you when you are wrong; the world will side with you when you are right."
"It is not just a friend's help that helps us, but the knowledge that they will unconditionally do so."

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

Justinian, think about what your title says. you said religion, and then talked about prayer. related, but different things.

first thing i thought of for an example illustrating how religion can be efficacious is how one religion organized, inspired, and united backwards nomads and that roamed deserts and caravan trails and turned them around and they conquered about half the former Roman Empire in about 100 years.

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

Aside from the fact that almost all Christians know that there are three answers - yes, no, and wait.

Another ridiculous case of myopia for you, another easy answer for Christians :-p

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

"All this talk about prayer ---> outcome is a fraud. In fact, there is no empirical basis for this"

Not quite.  First of all, the Christians believe that God doesn't grant the believer's prayer request verbatim.  They understand that their prayer requests will be granted according to what God thinks is best, and trust that what God is best is probably better than what they think.  In other words, let's take a Christian guy named Bob, who is a cashier clerk making less than 20k a year.  He plays a lottery one day where the top prize is a brand new humvee.  The guy prays to win.   Now, it just so happens that it would be in the guy's best interest to get a vehicle.  God knows that future gas prices will be so high that driving the humvee around everyday will cost Bob too much to be able to save for his kid's college tuition. So God, instead, arranges things so he wins the 3rd price - a hybrid suv. 

Now, let's take another Christian guy (a taxi driver named Jack) who stops in to play the same lottery and makes the same prayer, but loses.  Moreover, he gets into an accident with his next fare, and is entirely at fault, killing his passenger.  He ends up losing his job, and can't get hired by anyone.  He has to go on welfare to feed his kids.  He starts drinking, his wife leaves him and files for a divorce, he quits going to church, becomes homeless, and dies in a cold alley somewhere.   Where was God for this guy?

Well, the idea is that God knows better what he needed.  For some reason, it was the best possible scenario for all that to happen to that guy.

How?  Well it could be that while spinning around in that downward spiral, Jack ended up saying some random thing to another homeless guy that ended up getting the other homeless guy to go to church one night, and that other homeless guy's soul got saved.  It could also be that the guy who had died in the accident had been a pedophile raping his own daughter every night.  Who knows.

The notion is here is that God knew Jack's heart / spirit was willing to go through all of that suffering just to end up playing a small part in whatever greater good God's plan involved: giving the other homeless guy's soul a chance for being saved and, bringing the pedophile to an early judgment day, were things that Jack himself probably prayed for in his spirit, without his mind knowing exactly what he was praying for.

The idea is also that Jack is rewarded in heaven far more than Bob is.

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

"Aside from the fact that almost all Christians know that there are three answers - yes, no, and wait.

Another ridiculous case of myopia for you, another easy answer for Christians :-p"

Yeah that's what my mom told some new converts who prayed for a job. They said God didn't answer their prayer.  Mom said, "Yes He did, He told you "no.""

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

And/Or they wanted what they deemed to be the "perfect job" and weren't willing to settle (by their standards) for anything else wink

Mickey D's (and really a host of other firms doing darn near anything you want) is *always* hiring...

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

"If you want to earn more money and thus live more abundantly, then pray to God and God will reward you with your desire."


That's not what I was taught. Selfish prayers fall on deaf ears.

Je maintiendrai

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Re: Religion: Not a viable means to realize an outcome

Indeed

"The true office of a friend is to side with you when you are wrong; the world will side with you when you are right."
"It is not just a friend's help that helps us, but the knowledge that they will unconditionally do so."

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