Re: Crush Apple

The Yell wrote:

"Why wouldn't we need to redefine the constitution?  It was written in a time considerably different than the one we live in now.  Case and point, the "arms" that are referenced in the 2nd amendment took roughly 30 seconds to fire a single shot and were sort of kind of accurate.  So why as a country wouldn't we want to modernize the document our gov't is supposed to be based on?"

Cause you didn't suggest it be amended. You suggested it be ignored.

Negative

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Crush Apple

A constitution is a weapon against undemocratic reforms. It is supposed to be difficult to change it.

Re: Crush Apple

Little Paul wrote:

A constitution is a weapon against undemocratic reforms. It is supposed to be difficult to change it.

If by "weapon against undemocratic reforms" you mean "set of rules"


Full Definition of constitution
1
:  an established law or custom :  ordinance
2
a :  the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body <a hearty constitution>
b :  the structure, composition, physical makeup, or nature of something <the constitution of society>
3
:  the act of establishing, making, or setting up
4
:  the mode in which a state or society is organized; especially :  the manner in which sovereign power is distributed
5
a :  the basic principles and laws of a nation, state, or social group that determine the powers and duties of the government and guarantee certain rights to the people in it
b :  a written instrument embodying the rules of a political or social organization

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Crush Apple

Resorting to a dictionary definition for complex political ideas is 100% useless.  Relying on that, "liberals" would be in favor of privatizing Social Security (since that's a new idea) and conservatives would be trying to keep Social Security as is.

Yes, a Constitution is a set of rules.  But why are those rules set up?  Did everyone just decide "Hey, let's make an arbitrary set of rules people have to live by that's separate from other sets of rules people have to live by solely because these rules people have to live by are harder to change than other rules people have to live by... and nothing else!  Why?  Why the hell not?"  Or was there a logical reason why people decided that this document should include a rule for the government not quartering soldiers in people's houses without their permission, but not a rule prohibiting people from committing murder (after all, prohibitions against criminal activity are fundamentally a restriction of the rights of people, just like any other law)?  Why add in freedom of speech, protection against quartering of soldiers, and a requirement to get Congress to pass legislation, and to make those rules harder to overturn than any other rule?

It's easy to say "The dictionary says X."  But you're not asking "why."

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Crush Apple

I think this conversation has deteriorated into gun ownership (seriously, can't people understand that gun ownership in the US is such a complex issue that will never get full consensus across everyone?), and I want to bring it back to the topic of encryption and legality.

Encryption is essential in today's Internet age. Most companies will employ a decent level of encryption (256-bit keys) will be near impossible to break:

"Breaking a symmetric 256-bit key by brute force requires 2128 times more computational power than a 128-bit key. 50 supercomputers that could check a billion billion (1018) AES keys per second (if such a device could ever be made) would, in theory, require about 3×1051 years to exhaust the 256-bit key space." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brute-for … cal_limits)

Services such as online banking, emails, people's medical details, insurance details, and the list really could just keep going on, are protected from people trying to steal information, whether that is the government or a malicious hacker trying to steal your bank details. Encryption is important. It is also important to ensure the integrity of the encryption key used to encrypt that data.

When we start down a path of encryption should be breakable by the government, it also makes it breakable by malicious people. There is no way that you can create a "backdoor", a method for access encrypted data, or using an encryption method that is breakable, that won't also allow other people to do the same. This is essentially the issue with the Apple vs FBI case, do you protect privacy of all sensitive information, or do you make it easier for ANYONE to see it.

There is more to the story that people don't know, so debating on whether Apple should or shouldn't create a backdoor is somewhat pointless, but we can look at the implications of such an action. Encryption needs protection, otherwise it will undermine the entire purpose of encryption and all of its REASONABLE applications.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Crush Apple

"Encryption is essential in today's Internet age."

But the Internet Age is optional.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Crush Apple

Optional for some end users, but not for corporations. Banks for instance require interconnectivity to transfer money. They need to connect to the Reserve Bank in order to share their aggregated transaction details (and if necessary, get loans from the bank). Businesses require connectivity between branches domestically and internationally, and the government share information all around the world. All of these examples aren't optional any more, and privacy and security are essential.

As for security being essential, a company is actually bound by law to protect information that they collect about you from online sources. They must ensure that reasonable actions are taken to ensure the security of information stored. They cannot release this information to a third party without your consent (or under law enforcement actions). The government need to protect their operational data from other nations. You mention that the government should have access to devices they wish to access for the concept of security, but the means that they wish to do it undermines the very technology that the US government uses to protect their own communications.

I know you will touch on the law enforcement part of the comments, so let me also point out that the Apple vs FBI lawsuit is not so much asking for specific information (Apple had cooperated with the investigation, such as giving access to the user's iCloud account, etc) but instead saying "give us access to every iPhone". With such tools/backdoors it is not only the FBI that can access the phone, but anyone else with the same tools/techniques as the FBI. This erodes the very security of EVERY user of an iPhone or iPad, and creates a dangerous precedence that any electronic device should have a backdoor for law enforcement or governmental access. It erodes the very foundation of security for ALL users, and EVEN erodes the very security that the US government use to protect their data.

So NO, the Internet Age is NOT optional for many entities, and undermining encryption WILL undermine the security of EVERY application, including the government's own operations.

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Crush Apple

Um sorry but the world existed before throwing data into the Cloud.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Crush Apple

LiGhTGuNs wrote:

No need for Apple to make a back door.
3 Clone rom from original phone to new phone (bitwise copy) 
4 Brute Force until failure at new phone
5 Try Again at step 3 untill succes

It seems more people have this idea smile
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/snowde … 2016-03-12
http://9to5mac.com/2016/03/09/edward-snowden-fbi-apple/

All the FBI needs to do to avoid any irreversible auto erase is simple to copy that flash memory (which includes the Effaceable Storage) before it tries 10 passcode attempts. It can then re-try indefinitely, because it can restore the NAND flash memory from its backup copy […]

The FBI can simply remove this chip from the circuit board (“desolder” it), connect it to a device capable of reading and writing NAND flash, and copy all of its data. It can then replace the chip, and start testing passcodes. If it turns out that the auto-erase feature is on, and the Effaceable Storage gets erased, they can remove the chip, copy the original information back in, and replace it. If they plan to do this many times, they can attach a “test socket” to the circuit board that makes it easy and fast to do this kind of chip swapping.

I am guessing FBI is trying this idea smile
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2016/03/22/ … phone.html

~Attacking is a Skill~
~Defending is an Art~

Re: Crush Apple

The Yell wrote:

Um sorry but the world existed before throwing data into the Cloud.

This isn't really the topic is it. We can't look at a past world and say "it was fine before x". The world has existed and thrived without cars, guns, modern medicine, or even the wheel. We aren't looking at the world through a previous period of time but instead looking at the modern world. There are corporations out in the world that are required by the government to use the Internet for communication (as mentioned, banks are one). The globalisation of companies rely on fast and secure communication, and sure they could use telegraphs or send ships around the world carrying messages, but that is not how the CURRENT world operates.

Furthermore, the issue isn't about throwing data into the cloud, but encryption covers communication too. A similarity is landline phones. It is illegal and very difficult for just anyone to tap into the phone call. The government can do it with a warrant, but a person hoping to eavesdrop cannot. The degradation of encryption as a whole doesn't create a portal just for law enforcement, it opens it up to everyone, including malicious hackers. If the encryption algorithms are secure and law enforcements are allowed access, few people would have an issue, but this affects everyone and creates weaknesses that malicious hackers can exploit, and that is the central issue here.

Apple had been cooperating with the FBI in handing over information, so this isn't an issue about law enforcement having access, it is about the threat to security overall. The Internet is here and for some corporations is not an optional media, it is essential to the core business operations. Yes, some individuals don't need to use the Internet or even a computer, but that can't be applied to every entity.

(One last point, and this should make the others in the thread happy, the world was fine before the invention and wide-spread ownerships of guns, and so therefore it should be fine to outlaw private gun ownership...same concept but completely ignores the complexity of the situation, environment, and stakeholders).

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

Re: Crush Apple

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/29/techn … .html?_r=0

All that without needing to give ISIS a key to every iphone in the world.  It's almost like heavy-handed solutions might NOT be the best fix.  yikes

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Crush Apple

The Great Eye wrote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/29/techn … .html?_r=0

All that without needing to give ISIS a key to every iphone in the world.  It's almost like heavy-handed solutions might NOT be the best fix.  yikes

I really really really hope the solution was trying his mother's birthday as the password.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Crush Apple

Hey Cook, remember when you said your phones were crap if anybody cracked them ever?

Good times.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Crush Apple

I liked the irreversible course of history the first time I met it, when it had big red stars and nukes on parade.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Crush Apple

I dont know what the May parade has to do with Apple sauce. yikes

The muslim dictator of the united  states  Obama saports isis.

Re: Crush Apple

I mean I met the irreversible course of human progress already.  It was called Communism.  I think the Internet hype is just as much hooey as Marxism-Leninism.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.