Topic: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Kaiser would have quit in 1915 if he could have kept Belgium.  Allies said Hell No.  Good Call?

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

I'll say yes, since the commies ended up losing in the long run

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The kaiser knew they would never let him or restart soon after the treaty...As soon as it has any strength an authoritarian regime often stands for war. The democratic parties wanted piece long before without even talking about extras.

Versailles was a mistake tough.

On the other hand the third Reich set a nice example that a dictatorship is never good, no matter the ideology it claims. If it wouldn't have happen, people in W-Europe might have fallen for it later.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

I would have thought to have 100% Belgian participation

although given what they post about their politics, they probably can't agree on this one either

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

lol, so I would disagree with myself?

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

In hindsight always...

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

Ok, Proud of my heritage, I make up for the other Belgians then. Perhaps it would be better for our econ later on if you bombarded our biggest cities to rubble and helped rebuilding it instead.

Happy now?

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

hey it helped ours twice

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

I always thought you were a secret JM Keynes fan.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

So where did u find that information as i cannot find it about the offer he made ?

but knowing now what the Germans are going through, i wouldn't be a part of that but we will be on our way soon to that environment.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

huh now I'm trying to find it on the internet.  I know it was in Keegan's history, but from what I'm seeing online, the Belgian occupation was formally said to be a separate question to be decided later blah blah blah wink wink-- in 1917.  I'll keep digging.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The German Empire was more democratic than most other nations. Every male over 25 years had the the right to vote (equal and secret) since 1871 in all imperial elections. (In the german states the election laws were diffrent.) In Britain voting rights were based on income and until 1918 only a half of the british men had the right to vote. When we look to the USA, the "model" democracy of that time, we are faced with the exclusion of great parts of the non-white population in the participation to vote. Many nations of the so called "democratic" Allies were far less a democracy than germany during the first world war.
The figure of the Kaiser is an illusion. The ruling-body of the German Empire was the "Bundesrat", where all Rulers of the states were assembled. The president of the Bundesrat had only the titel "German Emperor".
Was Belgium worth it? Well, this depends. On the on hand the german surrender in 1918 started the revolution and installed a shortlived democracy in germany. On the other hand the democratic period was followed by the Nazis and their crimes, which left a ethical strain on modern germany.
But as a german i can tell only one thing for sure: After every disaster we always come back to the top. Proof: Situation today.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Yell wrote:

The Kaiser would have quit in 1915 if he could have kept Belgium.

Mmmh, this is a joke, isn't it?

In case you are serious:
Have you got any link or source for this piece of weird knowledge?

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

I know I saw it in John Keegan's "The First World War"

While America was being neutral and "too proud to fight", Woodrow Wilson asked both sides to write down their peace terms and give them to him, and the German terms were basically "You lose, we win, we keep what we took"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

"The figure of the Kaiser is an illusion. The ruling-body of the German Empire was the "Bundesrat", where all Rulers of the states were assembled. The president of the Bundesrat had only the titel "German Emperor"."

Paul K. Massie goes into the details at length in "Dreadnought" but the Kaiser held a great deal of personal power in foriegn relations.  First, because he was outright monarch of Prussia, the largest German entity.  Secondly, because he had the whole military under his personal control.  Like some Brit said, there was one guy in Europe who could launch war by pushing a button, and it was the Kaiser.  The General Staff demanded war with France if Russia mobilized and the Kaiser - not the Bundesrat - ordered it so.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The following gentlemen took part in the conference on war aims of May 17 in the Chancellor’s Palace in Berlin:
Chancellor von Bethmann Hollweg
Under Secretary of State Wahnschaffe
Privy Financial Councilor [Geheimer Finanzrat] Hugenberg
District President [Landrat] Roetger
Corporation Lawyer [Syndikus] Hirsch
Baron [Freiherr] von Wangenheim
Dr. Roesicke
Commercial Councilor [Kommerzienrat] Friedrichs
Dr. Stresemann
Mayor Dr. Eberle
Mr. Wachhorst de Wente
Baron [Freiherr] von Twickel
Mr. Wallenborn

As the deputation’s first speaker, Baron von Wangenheim noted that the associations that were represented at this conference demonstrate the unity of economic sectors that are usually antagonistic to one another. This unity has been achieved because the plight of the Fatherland has brought even former economic and political opponents together. After the Christian Farmers’ Associations recently joined the corporations represented here, industry and agriculture stand united behind the demands that have been made by these corporations and are contained in the memorandum that has been presented to the Chancellor. Two factors have brought these groups together and are basic to their wishes. On the one hand, all sectors of industry have recognized the importance of agriculture to the economic and political existence of Germany. Without our agriculture to feed our people, this war simply could not be fought. The ideal of autarky is shared by all sectors. On the other hand, agriculture has recognized that German industry is likewise of paramount importance, that we would have collapsed militarily had German industry itself not been able to secure the extraordinarily large, direct and indirect requirements of the army with indigenous products. Strengthening and maintaining these two basic pillars of the German economy must therefore be the starting point for the Germany that we wish to construct after the war. From this premise, industry demands that Germany acquire the large deposits of iron ore in France, that the ore basins of Longwy and Briey, as well as the coal fields in the Pas de Calais and in the Department du Nord, must in the future belong to Germany in order to damage the enemy economically and to make us independent. In the interest of striking a balance between industry and agriculture, it is also necessary to demand that we obtain new territory in the east – land for settlement – in which new farms could be created for German settlers and land could be provided as well to German workers who might arrive from Russia. These demands will initially bring about economic balance in the new Fatherland. Additional demands have been set down in the memorandum that has been presented. If at the moment heavy clouds are again appearing on the political horizon, and if one can expect that new enemies will join the old, let the Chancellor be convinced that the economic sectors that stand behind the associations represented here are ready and willing to persevere economically, and that they are fully convinced that perseverance will be possible, just as they entertain no doubts about our military success.

The demands posed here naturally depend on the military situation. If they cannot be achieved militarily, one will have to do without them. It appears more important to the associations represented here that a goal be set forth for the eventuality of victory – a goal that signals to statesmen what can be achieved if we are victorious. That would certainly have an effect on the army’s morale.

After Privy Councilor Hugenburg spoke out along the same lines, emphasizing the standpoint of industry, Chancellor von Bethmann Hollweg offered some extended remarks, which included the following: “He fully appreciates the significance of unity among the sectors of the German economy, which is expressed in the declaration presented to him. At the moment Germany faces a difficult political situation, which is in fact perhaps more difficult than at any time since the beginning of the war. We have to reckon with Italy’s joining Germany’s enemies; even the Balkan states of Romania, Bulgaria, and Greece may join them, too. He sees little hope that Italy in particular will remain neutral. Italy is presently ruled by the streets, although four-fifths of the senate is for Giolitti and peace. He [Bethmann Hollweg] has seen this development coming and for this reason believes that this is not an opportune moment to discuss war aims. He has no doubt that the German Empire will be able to protect its borders in the east and the west, even against this combined assault. The gentlemen can judge from the battles around Arras how difficult these defenses are to break. What will become of Austria-Hungary in this assault must remain an open question.

As far as war aims are concerned, the war has developed in a way that will make the idea of a peace of conciliation impossible. This is especially true of France’s relationship to Germany. France has to be cured of its megalomania. It goes without saying that he is for capitalizing thoroughly on a German war to this end. It is deplorable and wretched to entertain the idea that we will not want to make the most of victory. He is painfully and deeply disturbed that anyone could attribute such a view to him, to which he has never given public expression. He is also of the opinion that restoring Belgium is impossible, for Belgium would only be a vassal to France and England. The situation in the east is different. A separate peace in the east is certain, if Italy does not enter the war. But even if Italy does become involved, the moment may arise in certain circumstances when Russia is no longer willing to continue the war, and we can as a result conclude a separate agreement with Russia. It is doubtful in any case whether such a separate agreement will make possible the fulfillment of the wishes that have been expressed. All in all, the present situation recalls Prussia’s situation during the Seven-Years’ War. The [present] war has taken on the character of a coalition war. He is no pessimist with respect to the war’s outcome; he is filled with solemn optimism, but one cannot get around the fact that the situation has become difficult. Thus he does not know whether all the wishes expressed here are realizable. He asks the participants to remain convinced that, when the proper time comes, he will call on the sectors represented here to stand by his side with advice and aid in resolving the question of Germany’s future political and economic circumstances.”

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc … ge_id=1813

Still looking for a primary source of the German response to Wilson, but you can see here that the idea of accepting peace if Belgium was given to the Reich was, internally, acknowledged policy in 1915.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

Well at least Belgium is worth a topic in IC's forum.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

Oh, I'm still considering closing this as spam, so don't get your hopes up.  big_smile

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Yell wrote:

The Kaiser would have quit in 1915 if he could have kept Belgium.

Altruist wrote:

Mmmh, this is a joke, isn't it?

In case you are serious:
Have you got any link or source for this piece of weird knowledge?

The Yell wrote:

I know I saw it in John Keegan's "The First World War"

While America was being neutral and "too proud to fight", Woodrow Wilson asked both sides to write down their peace terms and give them to him, and the German terms were basically "You lose, we win, we keep what we took"

"You lose, we win, we keep what we took", sounds a lot more like what I learned anbd read.,. 
The part about "The Kaiser would have quit in 1915..." is, I guess, just nonsense, though. Or, well, to believe this, I'd need to see some very good and reliable sources.

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

I don't think it's "nonsense" when in fact Woodrow Wilson asked the combatants to set down their peace terms in writing.  Would have been pretty embarrassing for the Kaiser to put down his peace terms, get the Allies to say "oh OK, fine" and then say "oh wait wait I forgot to give you page 3"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Great Eye wrote:

Oh, I'm still considering closing this as spam, so don't get your hopes up.  big_smile


Why is it spam? It's a historical argument about stuff from 100 years ago

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

OK now I have to go to a library and get Keegan's work and maybe Gilbert's.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5544246

But according to that, Germany was just playing footsie by asking for "peace and let's work out the details about borders later."

In fact in the US the proposal of December 1916 was understood to be

IMPUDENT PROPOSALS. 
ONLY PARTIAL RESTITUTION
NEW YORK, December 12.
A prominent official of the German
Embassy in Washington has informed the
United Press Association that the peace
terms of Germany include practically a
return to the territorial status before
the war, with the exceptions of
the kingdoms of Lithuania and
Poland, and the readjustment of in-
ternational boundaries in the Balkans. The
latter question is of so complicated a
nature that it means at least a partial
restoration of the kingdoms of Serbia and
Roumania. The terms also include the
return of the lost colonies of Germany.
The Embassy official declares:--"The
factors which help the Ger- 
mán proposals are the favorable 
military position of the Central Powers and
the fact that the winter necessitates a ces-
sation of hard fighting. The Germans de-
sire also to convince the world that the
Germans are not fighting the war for ter-
ritorial conquest. The important question
is to discover whether the Allies will talk
peace."

...Some of the Washington correspondents
of New York papers say that the German
Embassy in Washington has received the
text of the German peace terms, which
provide, in addition to those already stated,
the complete restoration of Belgium, the
evacuation of Northern France, the reten-
tion of the bulk of Serbia by Austria, the
restoration to Bulgaria of the territory lost 
in the second Balkan war, the restoration
to Austria of the territory already cap-
tured by Italy, and the retention by Tur-
key of Constantinople."

Which is not in line with what Bethwegg-Hollman was quoted as saying in 1917 in his private talks with German industrialists, when he said Belgium had to go.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Yell wrote:
The Great Eye wrote:

Oh, I'm still considering closing this as spam, so don't get your hopes up.  big_smile


Why is it spam? It's a historical argument about stuff from 100 years ago

Because declaring it spam would rattle Little Paul's cage.  I thought that was obvious.  big_smile

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Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

lol

Re: 100 Years Later - Was Belgium Worth It

The Yell wrote:

I don't think it's "nonsense" [...]

You were opening a whole thread and poll starting with "The Kaiser would have quit in 1915"...

I'd say that I know a bit about German history and if you can't find a reliable source supporting this very surprising statement, then it's probably made up nonsense to anger the poor Belgiums.

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.