Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

Anybody who read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" would see many things similar, especially the stupidity of the Western democracies.

Of course Putin isn't Hitler! Hitler wanted all Europe, and Putin just wants Russia to be #1! Of course he'll stop! It's really of no interest to the United States whether the old Soviet Union is reconstituted by military force...

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

27 (edited by Little Paul 06-Mar-2014 17:02:01)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

"Anybody who read "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" would see many things similar, especially the stupidity of the Western democracies."
Exactly my thought. I also see many similarities between the former Janoekovitsj regime and the end of the Weimar republiek. They were almost destroying democracy in the same way.

Why would Putin stop destroying neighboring countries if everybody let him? What would ever be his motive to stop? Its almost seems like we want him to enslave large portions of the world.

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

Sure we will negate our treaty with Czechoslovakia... errr... Ukraine so that there won't be war in our time. Obama will sign a grand measure allowing for peace and will work to reduce our military based upon that... so that we followers of Chamberlain... err... Obama... can enjoy glorious welfare like benefits.

All for our own good.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

peace in our time. big_smile

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

I am starting to lose this one. How dare anyone excuse a great power hurling brute force against a small one, justifying it with some nonsense about extremists and a "responsibility to protect". There should be no place for such cynical bullying in a 21st-century world order. And for what? So a leader with a virility complex can play to his domestic gallery. The whole thing is utterly unacceptable. There must be costs and consequences.

But enough of Iraq.

Lets just all go apeshit when Putin annexes a province that actually wants to be in the Russian Federation, without firing a shot. Honestly, it's the best solution for all parties involved : Eastern Ukraine can go play nice with the EU, and western Ukraine becomes part of the Russian Federation, and we split the costs for rebuilding a bankrupt country between the two. As a European, im all for that, we've allready paid enough for Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and assorted other virtually bankrupt countries as is, let Putin pick up part of the bill. Simple as that, no?

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

>>Lets just all go apeshit when Putin annexes a province that actually wants to be in the Russian Federation, without firing a shot.

If that were true they would have done it without being invaded.  I also find it amusing you can talk about the EU standing apart from the Russia Federation, when we all know historically that Europe belongs in the Russian sphere of influence.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

32 (edited by TCO511 18-Mar-2014 21:07:08)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

The Yell wrote:

>>Lets just all go apeshit when Putin annexes a province that actually wants to be in the Russian Federation, without firing a shot.

If that were true they would have done it without being invaded.  I also find it amusing you can talk about the EU standing apart from the Russia Federation, when we all know historically that Europe belongs in the Russian sphere of influence.


First off, they weren't invaded, the Russians allready had a huge presence in Crimea to start with. Actually it's the primary deployment site for their Black Sea fleet, as it has been for quite a long time allready. They DID however strengthen their presence there to safeguard their interests from the newly emerging, anti-russian Ukrainian government. I'm sure the USA would just hand over any military bases abroad when the government of that country suddenly turned anti-USA, right? Also, all 'aggressive acquisitions' in Crimea lately were not executed by Russian troops, but by pro-russian CRIMEAN paramilitary troops. Big difference.

And about Europe being in the Russian sphere of influence .... we still have American military bases in my country, not Russian ones, and they still even house American ballistic nuclear missiles aimed at Russia. I'm sure your assessment is correct though, since we're a little more socialist in our policies than the USA, we must all be commies. *sigh*

Get your facts straight before trying to sell them off as facts.

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

>>First off, they weren't invaded, the Russians allready had a huge presence in Crimea to start with.

We have a huge presence in Ensenada during Spring Break.  Doesnt' mean we start hauling down the flag and policing the streets with armored vehicles.

>>Actually it's the primary deployment site for their Black Sea fleet, as it has been for quite a long time allready. They DID however strengthen their presence there to safeguard their interests from the newly emerging, anti-russian Ukrainian government.

By hauling the flag off courthouses and policing the streets with armored cars.

>>I'm sure the USA would just hand over any military bases abroad when the government of that country suddenly turned anti-USA, right?

Pretty much, apart from Guantanamo. 

>>Also, all 'aggressive acquisitions' in Crimea lately were not executed by Russian troops, but by pro-russian CRIMEAN paramilitary troops. Big difference.

Yes, they don't get a campaign medal for the NonInvasion of OughtastayedRussia.  And there's probably some pension angle to it.  Who are you kidding?  Seriously?

>>And about Europe being in the Russian sphere of influence .... we still have American military bases in my country, not Russian ones, and they still even house American ballistic nuclear missiles aimed at Russia. I'm sure your assessment is correct though, since we're a little more socialist in our policies than the USA, we must all be commies. *sigh*

Nope nope, there were Russians in France and Italy in 1815, and they've been involved in Sweden since 1705. So clearly there's ancient conflicts that should be resolved by the use of force by not-invading not-Russians.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

>>We have a huge presence in Ensenada during Spring Break.  Doesnt' mean we start hauling down the flag and policing the streets with armored vehicles.

Though it would help.  Stupid bareass drunks

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

France is one of Russia's harshest critics at the moment, and sweden is neutral as usual. Saying Euro is in russian sphere of influence is paranoid rightwing yank propaganda lingering from the 70s.

The biggest concerns EU has about getting hostile with Russia atm is that 30-40% of their gas for heating comes from russia, thru a Ukranian pipeline. If Russia were to cut the gas flow (again), the alternative closeby gas producers Norway and UK cant produce and efficiently deliver enough. That leaves expensive gas producers from other continents.

That and ofcourse all the trade between the regions.

Once again, cash is king

Turn on - Tune in - Drop out

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

The Yell wrote:

>>First off, they weren't invaded, the Russians allready had a huge presence in Crimea to start with.

We have a huge presence in Ensenada during Spring Break.  Doesnt' mean we start hauling down the flag and policing the streets with armored vehicles.

>>Actually it's the primary deployment site for their Black Sea fleet, as it has been for quite a long time allready. They DID however strengthen their presence there to safeguard their interests from the newly emerging, anti-russian Ukrainian government.

By hauling the flag off courthouses and policing the streets with armored cars.

Well, they're hauling down their own underwear and driving around keg-mobiles, but otherwise your comparison is pretty much accurate ... its an invasion, but a (largely) non-violent one. But once again, by Crimeans, not by Russians.

The Yell wrote:

>>I'm sure the USA would just hand over any military bases abroad when the government of that country suddenly turned anti-USA, right?

Pretty much, apart from Guantanamo. 

>>Also, all 'aggressive acquisitions' in Crimea lately were not executed by Russian troops, but by pro-russian CRIMEAN paramilitary troops. Big difference.

Yes, they don't get a campaign medal for the NonInvasion of OughtastayedRussia.  And there's probably some pension angle to it.  Who are you kidding?  Seriously?

You want to make a list of all the conflicts where the USA has incited and armed the local uprisings in the last few decades just to protect their imperial interests? But aside from that, the American indignation remains laughable as long as they remain in Iraq based on trumped up excuses (they STILL havent found those WMDs right? Sadam's pretty dead right?). Theres tens of thousands of people killed in THAT invasion, which was also unsanctioned by the UN. He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone, right?

The Yell wrote:

>>And about Europe being in the Russian sphere of influence .... we still have American military bases in my country, not Russian ones, and they still even house American ballistic nuclear missiles aimed at Russia. I'm sure your assessment is correct though, since we're a little more socialist in our policies than the USA, we must all be commies. *sigh*

Nope nope, there were Russians in France and Italy in 1815, and they've been involved in Sweden since 1705. So clearly there's ancient conflicts that should be resolved by the use of force by not-invading not-Russians.

By that logic, considering the amount of USA citizens of Russian descent compared to the same in European countries, you guys are downright a Russian colony ! No wonder theres so much boozing in Ensenada during spring break, it's your Russian blood speaking ! roll

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

37 (edited by The Yell 19-Mar-2014 01:03:38)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

>>France is one of Russia's harshest critics at the moment, and sweden is neutral as usual. Saying Euro is in russian sphere of influence is paranoid rightwing yank propaganda lingering from the 70s.

>>By that logic, considering the amount of USA citizens of Russian descent compared to the same in European countries, you guys are downright a Russian colony ! No wonder theres so much boozing in Ensenada during spring break, it's your Russian blood speaking !

No, I'm just explaining why Russia is going to exert influence to the fullest extent within its historic sphere.  After all they only got to Crimea in 1735.

>>The biggest concerns EU has about getting hostile with Russia atm is that 30-40% of their gas for heating comes from russia, thru a Ukranian pipeline. If Russia were to cut the gas flow (again), the alternative closeby gas producers Norway and UK cant produce and efficiently deliver enough. That leaves expensive gas producers from other continents.

Which is why I insist the USA has the option of bombing on those pipelines rather than moan about sanctions.  Not only will we still have enough gas, we can sell you the gas you can't buy from Russia for wartime prices! Kaching!

>>You want to make a list of all the conflicts where the USA has incited and armed the local uprisings in the last few decades just to protect their imperial interests? But aside from that, the American indignation remains laughable as long as they remain in Iraq based on trumped up excuses (they STILL havent found those WMDs right? Sadam's pretty dead right?). Theres tens of thousands of people killed in THAT invasion, which was also unsanctioned by the UN. He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone, right?

Lemme know when we add a state and issue US passports, mkay?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

38 (edited by TCO511 19-Mar-2014 03:02:18)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

The Yell wrote:

Lemme know when we add a state and issue US passports, mkay?

While we're addressing the whole thing from a *historical* point of view anyways ... how about you did that for all 50 states? Technically speaking, those were all invaded and annexed. I'm sure the indigenous population (read native americans) would have something to say about that. OR, did you consult the Iñupiat, Yupik, Aleut, Eyak, Tlingit, Haida, Tsimshian and so on when you bought Alaska from the Russians? This compared to a province that was historically speaking Russian in the first place, where everyone still speaks Russian, and where everyone was consulted and voted in favor of joining the Russians ... once again, beware of being indignated when your whole country is based on one huge invasion, leading to a decimation and subsequent degradation to second-rate citizens of the indigenous population. At least the Crimeans WANT to join the Russians.

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

TCO wrote:

While we're addressing the whole thing from a *historical* point of view anyways ... how about you did that for all 50 states?

Fixed.

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Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

The Great Eye wrote:
TCO wrote:

While we're addressing the whole thing from a *historical* point of view anyways ... how about you did that for all 50 states?

Fixed.

check tongue

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

I don't understand how you are against the invasion in Iraq but not against Putins invasion of Ukraine. Iraq might still be as big a mess as it was but at least it isn't part of USA is it?

Russia played a large role in Europe in history until the last Crimean war. That is what yell is referring to.

"Lets just all go apeshit when Putin annexes a province"
You think chamberlain was right then? Cause Hitler started off the same way. For me IT IS a problem if you enlarge a non functional, non-democratic country with more concentration camps then factories.

"that actually wants to be in the Russian Federation, without firing a shot."
It was a very very huge risk that should never have been taken! If only one Ukrainian base/Russian platoon went crazy it would be a bloodbath.

"Honestly, it's the best solution for all parties involved : Eastern Ukraine can go play nice with the EU, and western Ukraine becomes part of the Russian Federation,"
It is a huge problem if you abuse Russian nationalistic feelings with propaganda to enlarge a criminal state that kills its own civilians with alarming rates. You act like its not a problem how the internal affairs of Russia are handled. The Russian part feels threatened and has been fooled by propaganda. Before they realize what they did its to late to turn back.

"and we split the costs for rebuilding a bankrupt country between the two."
Russia is bankrupt as well, despite the gas. Its because of the very very bad way the country is organized.

"As a European, im all for that, we've allready paid enough for Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and assorted other virtually bankrupt countries as is, let Putin pick up part of the bill. Simple as that, no?"
No, and I'm a European too. Its not because its a poor country, you should abandon democracy like Germany did before WW2 started.

42 (edited by esa 19-Mar-2014 10:37:54)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

http://tlaxcala-int.org/upload/gal_7785.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Xb21i5b4Bw0/U … Crimea.jpg

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

Little Paul wrote:

"Lets just all go apeshit when Putin annexes a province"
You think chamberlain was right then? Cause Hitler started off the same way. For me IT IS a problem if you enlarge a non functional, non-democratic country with more concentration camps then factories.

Honestly, there was more overlap between the rhetoric used by Bush jr. on the eve of the Iraq invasion and the rhetoric used by Hitler, than between the rhetoric used by Putin and Hitler. And did we stop the USA from invading Iraq? nope, we didnt, and we'll take this too, eventually. Coz, just as in the case of the Iraq invasion, theres simply nothing anyone can do about it, and noone is going to risk a breakdown of internation trade, leave alone a full-blown world war over such silly places as Iraq or Crimea.

Little Paul wrote:

"that actually wants to be in the Russian Federation, without firing a shot."
It was a very very huge risk that should never have been taken! If only one Ukrainian base/Russian platoon went crazy it would be a bloodbath.

agreed, without discussion.

Little Paul wrote:

"Honestly, it's the best solution for all parties involved : Eastern Ukraine can go play nice with the EU, and western Ukraine becomes part of the Russian Federation,"
It is a huge problem if you abuse Russian nationalistic feelings with propaganda to enlarge a criminal state that kills its own civilians with alarming rates. You act like its not a problem how the internal affairs of Russia are handled. The Russian part feels threatened and has been fooled by propaganda. Before they realize what they did its to late to turn back.

In essence you're right, Russia is one huge criminal state. Question is, what shining beacon of hope do we have that DOES do it right ? China with it's maoist government known for infractions on human rights and imprisoning political dissidents, and its unchecked economic growth that pollutes the environment for generations to come? The USA that is a huge fascist police state (spying on its own population on a huge scale, patriot act, indoctrination of population with 'if youre not with us youre against us', no democracy at all - a 2-party system where you can choose between soft-touch liberalism and hard-touch liberalism is hardly democratic, Guantanamo, etcetc), or the EU that is a powerless body made up of ever-bickering countries too small to pull any weight on their own and that keeps pouring money down the drain that is the dream of a unified europe without ever really unifying? Honestly, im not a fan of Putin either, but considering the alternatives, im still convinced the Crimeans can choose to join the Russians if thats what they really want. They knew fully well what they chose for.


Little Paul wrote:

"and we split the costs for rebuilding a bankrupt country between the two."
Russia is bankrupt as well, despite the gas. Its because of the very very bad way the country is organized.

So is the USA and all European countries, yet we all happily keep going and putting ourselves into more debt we'll never be able to repay. Honestly, the only country that is debt-free AND has a decent sized economy/industry is Brunei. Everyone else is doing badly in either being underdeveloped or in being in the kinds of debts they'll never be able to repay.

Little Paul wrote:

"As a European, im all for that, we've allready paid enough for Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and assorted other virtually bankrupt countries as is, let Putin pick up part of the bill. Simple as that, no?"
No, and I'm a European too. Its not because its a poor country, you should abandon democracy like Germany did before WW2 started.

Russia is a democratic federation. Putin keeps being re-elected, sure, but the population keeps its right to vote. Ok, granted, its not a true democracy, but neither is the USA, or even any European country. They're all particracies at best and corporatocracies at worst. Russia is just more in-your-face about it, with Putin staying in power for everyone to see, instead of hiding it behind a charade of puppets for the ones really in power.


And just to be clear : im not a fan of Putin, or his endorsement of criminal elements that are actually running his country, or the corruption that is ever-prevalent in the russian government, or the gaybashing laws there, or ... there's so much wrong there that it is really sad. Yet, theres just as much wrong everywhere else, so noone really has a right to go all holier-than-thou on the Russians without first cleaning up their own act. And i stick to my initial point, the Crimeans have CHOSEN to join Russia, knowing fully well what they were getting into, so let them.

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

"Honestly, there was more overlap between the rhetoric used by Bush jr. on the eve of the Iraq invasion and the rhetoric used by Hitler, than between the rhetoric used by Putin and Hitler."
Hitler started with annexation of dutch speaking parts, and some of the arguments chamberlain used  are the same as yours. Nazi Germany was a classic top down authoritarian regime like Putins. That is the analogy I want to make. Another large difference is US never owned and wanted to annex the region, Russia does.

"And did we stop the USA from invading Iraq? nope, we didnt, and we'll take this too, eventually. Coz, just as in the case of the Iraq invasion, theres simply nothing anyone can do about it, and noone is going to risk a breakdown of internation trade, leave alone a full-blown world war over such silly places as Iraq or Crimea."
They are so silly Putin would give it away but he accidentally invaded and risk his relations with the west. Once it started he forgot to blow it off. More urgent matters proly.

"In essence you're right, Russia is one huge criminal state. Question is, what shining beacon of hope do we have that DOES do it right ?"
None do it right, but many do it better.

"China with it's maoist government known for infractions on human rights and imprisoning political dissidents, and its unchecked economic growth that pollutes the environment for generations to come?"
China is another example of what happens if you let a non democratic regime go ahead.

"The USA that is a huge fascist police state (spying on its own population on a huge scale, patriot act, indoctrination of population with 'if youre not with us youre against us', no democracy at all - a 2-party system where you can choose between soft-touch liberalism and hard-touch liberalism is hardly democratic, Guantanamo, etcetc),"
Usa isn't as free as it once was and I regret it firmly, but it is far from being Russia and many things can be reversed still. You do exaggerate the existing steps towards totalitarianism that happened in US and EU. I do however share your concern here in general but that is another discussion.

"or the EU that is a powerless body made up of ever-bickering countries too small to pull any weight on their own and that keeps pouring money down the drain that is the dream of a unified europe without ever really unifying? Honestly, im not a fan of Putin either, but considering the alternatives, im still convinced the Crimeans can choose to join the Russians if thats what they really want. They knew fully well what they chose for."
No they don't know what they chose for. The only television or large part of the media in their language is owned by Putin. Its called brainwashing. Its risky to write in Russia even what you now wrote.

You should ask yourself this question: where do you want to live? That not-so-shiny-beacon or hell? EU/US or Russia/China?

"So is the USA and all European countries,"
If we had that amount of natural resources in EU we would all be as rich as Norway. That is why Russia doesn't collapse completely or is in the same state NK is.

"Russia is a democratic federation. Putin keeps being re-elected, sure, but the population keeps its right to vote."
Like in real Elections? Who are you fooling? Even if they were fair, he owns the media even more then Berlusconi did. I saw a lot of protest on the street and I saw why it died out: they are all in camps learning why Putins way is the right way. Also notice how ellections don't guarantee a good control system on the state.

"They're all particracies at best and corporatocracies at worst. "
But the control system still works despite the huge flaws and corruption. In Russia it doesn't.

"Yet, theres just as much wrong everywhere else"
Again, do you want to live there?? No you don't. Largely because of its regime. We wouldn't have this argument alright, but for me that would be a bad thing. big_smile

"the Crimeans have CHOSEN to join Russia"
Like there is one big "The Crimeans"? Like in Tatars and Ukrainians and Russians? You don't even know what they really chose cause no-one was allowed there and they were only presented 2 options. I would have voted to go into Russia if I was there not to get picked up by the police later on. Even then people make mistakes, especially when bombarded with  propaganda 24/7.

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

Who is gonna suppy the Ukraine with gas now?

The inmates are running the asylum

46 (edited by Little Paul 21-Mar-2014 20:33:42)

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

"Who is gonna suppy the Ukraine with gas now?"
Who is going to buy Russian gas now? They can try to slowly become puppets of the Chinese but they are not exactly best friends are they?

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_ … rgy_sector

The inmates are running the asylum

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

2007? like in 7 years ago? tongue

If they stop delivering gas, we will suffer economically but they will be in total chaos long before our democracies are threatened. Authoritarian regimes only appear strong till you find out how ineffective, nonfunctional and corrupt they are afterwards. Some people thought heaven of the soviet union until it all came out how poor they really were.

Putin knows his power base is fragile. They will never cut the gas unless they fear to go down anyway.

China doesn't want Russia to stop the gas either. If EU econ goes down, they will go down with it, as they are in the same position where they can not afford mass riots.

Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/1 … 47557.html

Yeah, enjoy that.  smile

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Re: Rusia to invade Ukraine

gee, you had to go and spoil it again didnt you Zarf? tongue

Ah well, time for me to bow out anyways, just came by to pester Torqez about something, and thought it'd be fun to annoy some peeps with a totally silly point of view on this situation - till mr Barf had to spoil the fun and undermine my best argument big_smile My tip for everyone : stop taking things so seriously, have fun while you can, life as you think you know it will end in 15-50 years. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ … scientists

anyways, have fun with it either way wink

When speaking your mind, it is of utmost importance to keep using it !