Topic: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Remember this is not about next year prediction but on a longer timespan of ten years.

2 (edited by V. Kemp 04-Jan-2014 06:27:11)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

It'll be interesting to watch China challenge the US Navy in the Pacific in the coming decade. Because the US is soon going to be forced to admit it's too broke to maintain its Navy.

Of course they'll grow. Their fascist leaders want to siphon more money from their cattle. And if they fail to grow the economy, they'll falsify figures and we'll think they grew either way.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

3 (edited by Little Paul 03-Jan-2014 22:29:56)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Its hard to predict, but there are a number of reasons for the economy not to grow as fast as it did.

Pollution:
Pollution in the cities is huge. Its even worse then the darkest moment of our industrial age.
People die of smog and get poisoned by heavy metals in their water. They have a huge drinking water problem and many farmlands will become useless in the future. The air pollution costs a fortune every year.

Demand stagnates:
Their economy was based on ever growing huge export.  Most of this export went to western countries. They gradually took over many production lines from western companies. Their share in products made for the west can't increase as much as it did.

Energy:
They relied on cheap energy for the production of their goods. This energy will become more expensive for them.

Corruption:
No need to explain that. It also makes for a larger gap between rich and poor as anywhere in the world and social tension.

Demand for freedom:
Even for the Chinese who are used to decades of oppression, there are more uprisings as ever before.

Aging:
the population is aging rapidly because of the one child policy.

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

they'll break up, its what China does

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

5 (edited by Little Paul 06-Jan-2014 13:09:17)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Strange that no-one predicts them to grow as fast or faster as they did. Not so long ago many people here predicted them to overtake the world economically.

Maybe I should have had every option end with: "but shut up LP" and them 2 persons would have voted something else. tongue

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

They went and got inflation even with their efforts to keep their currency devalued. Started when smart phones became desirable to their people and everyone had to have one even if they did cost a years salary...

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Just did some more reading about their balance sheets. 70% rise in local debts over the past 3 years: Their debt to GDP ratio is near 200%.

And as our economy (USA) falters, so do their exports to us so they take a hit too. It's not looking good for anyone globally because 9/10 countries are led by corrupt psychopaths/sociopaths.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Mister Spock wrote:

Just did some more reading about their balance sheets. 70% rise in local debts over the past 3 years: Their debt to GDP ratio is near 200%.

And as our economy (USA) falters, so do their exports to us so they take a hit too. It's not looking good for anyone globally because 9/10 countries are indebted to the financial blackmail of the neo-liberal moronic system.


There you go Kemp, fixed it for you....

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

9 (edited by V. Kemp 08-Jan-2014 21:29:48)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

They're indebted to corrupt international banksters because they elect bought and owned leaders. If everyone woke up and pulled an Iceland the earth would be better off.

It's short sighted to blame "the system" or "big companies" without acknowledging the corrupt government officials who empower them with legislation and law enforcement. There will always be people who seek to cheat any system. Pointing out they exist is not insightful nor helpful. Pointing out that international banksters are so wealthy they own our politicians and we're too ignorant/lazy to stop it suggests what we need to do to change the broken debt-slavery system: WAKE UP, vote for people other than Republicrat slave masters (in the USA), and DEMAND change.

I don't disagree with you. There are a tiny percent of the world who are mega rich and want us all in debt endlessly, allowing them to profit on interest eternally, using humanity for profit like livestock. But I think these mega rich international banksters and the government officials they own need to be addressed directly. I don't think just a vague "neo-liberal" "system" is the problem, but real people running real organizations and holding real elected office. We need to wake up, educate our children, and kick out these corrupt would-be slave-masters.

Capitalism is not the problem. Freedom is not the problem. (I'm not advocating anarchy, just limited government/corruption).

Free markets/capitalism don't allow GE to pay 0 taxes. Corrupt government bribed/owned/controlled by GE does.

Free markets don't cause huge bubbles and huge bursts, the Federal Reserve system makes natural economic cycles much worse. Case in point, their QE pumping up the stock market for the past few years. Wages are down. Employment is down. Yet the stock market is soaring. Why? Bubble. Why? Federal Reserve endless printing.

Free markets didn't cause the dollar to lose 98% of its value in the past 100 years, the Federal Reserve, again, gave us this great benefit!

Free markets didn't socialize the losses (ie make taxpayers pay for them) of failed insurance companies, auto makers, and banks who took risky bets and lost. And who were bad at producing products people wanted. Free markets didn't prevent these companies from failing and their competitors (who didn't fail at business) from getting their business. Corrupt government officials did.

China is an example of these people getting their way. Poverty abound, social engineering guaranteeing tens of millions of men will never have families, pollution ruining the land and people's lives. Whether its economy grows or sinks, its elite rulers won't feel the hit and will lock up or execute anyone who speaks up too loudly. Their fascist slave master status is protected by force of law and military. They will milk their livestock and enjoy the fruits of the livestock's labor. It's a bankster paradise. There are many in America and Europe who actively pursue such a system here. Incrementally, that's the direction we move.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Kemp: the exact same argument is made on why communism is not wrong and should be used, and why soviet Russia was not communist.

The system is wrong because it allows (and actively encourages) this unwanted behaviour; just like communism allows for the power hungry to have absolute power.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

11 (edited by V. Kemp 09-Jan-2014 15:49:11)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

You_Fool wrote:

Kemp: the exact same argument is made on why communism is not wrong and should be used, and why soviet Russia was not communist...

"The system" as defined as "dolts electing corrupt fascists," sure.

That's not "the system" I support. You're conflating democratic republican governance with "idiots electing fascists." This is not necessarily the case. American history is our example.

As for my argument that "we should fight corruption because fascism is horrible," how exactly is this an argument for communism, which is fascism, which I'm directly saying is terrible? How is this an argument for Russia not being communist/fascist, which it was/is? Your explanation for these bizarre and nonsensical statements is...?

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

"The system is wrong because it allows (and actively encourages) this unwanted behaviour; just like communism allows for the power hungry to have absolute power."
What system doesn't allow unwanted behavior then?

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

He's alleging that democratic governance itself inherently tolerates corruption?

I disagree. And the fact that I'm here is evidence of this. I'm calling out the politicians who engage in it. I'm calling out everyone who votes for those politicians (which is most of those in office today.)

If we can't wake up enough to care about our society and who runs it, there's no system better than democratic governance to save us from ourselves.

The notion that authoritarianism can save us from democratic governance is silly and ridiculous. Only a cultural war against idiocy and laziness can save democratic governance. Surrendering freedom to fascism is never an escape from corruption.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

I am arguing the human nature is the cause of any "problems" in today's society, so yes LP there is no solution, other than a complete culture shift (as argued by kemp below) in which we break society and re-build it, and thus re-build human morals and nature. Central governance is not needed, especially in today's technological world, but there is not way to implement a decentralised society. Of course both you and Kemp will think this idiotic, but then I think the same of you for your desire to uphold the market as god, so we are even there.

Kemp: Communism is not fascist, it is the people helping each other, it is the spirit of community. Also I am not necessarily arguing against the "democratic" process as we have it, I am against the desire that the "market" is ideal and will solve all problems. It will not because of human nature, because of humans it will cause more problems than it solves. Communism will also solve all problems, but because of humans it does not - this is my point that the "free market is god" neo-lib view point is the same as the communist/socialist view point and has the same inherent issues - i.e. Humans.


Mister Spock wrote:

The notion that authoritarianism can save us from democratic governance is silly and ridiculous. Only a cultural war against idiocy and laziness can save democratic governance. Surrendering freedom to fascism is never an escape from corruption.

This is very true. The only way out is through a dramatic shift in focus on what is important, from money and material possessions to the enjoyment of life.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

15 (edited by V. Kemp 10-Jan-2014 00:16:30)

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

You_Fool wrote:

Kemp: Communism is not fascist, it is the people helping each other, it is the spirit of community.

The notion that state ownership/control (the difference is a technicality) of everything isn't fascism is as ignorant as it is ridiculous. Fascism is the merger of state and corporate power. State ownership of everything corporate is, by definition, fascism.

You don't know the difference between collectivism (forced action enforced by state violence) and collective action (voluntary action by community judging the action to be for their own good). Pretty big difference.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

If you don't know communism that isn't my problem kemp. Forced state ownership is not communism by any measure according to Marx. It is according to Stalin, but that is debatable if that was communism or if it was fascism - pro tip, there is no argument to say it was communism in anyway other than name.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

is this game banned in China? We seem to have lost all Chinese players, and Wormstrum who was an Aussie living in China

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

Wouldn't surprise me yell. There is a politics forum after all and the website is in English. But it would ofc point out why the poll hasn't got any more positive about their econ.

@fool:
"This is very true. The only way out is through a dramatic shift in focus on what is important, from money and material possessions to the enjoyment of life."
So...you're a Dudeist?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dudeism

On a more serious note, you don't provide a worked-out alternative. Kemps social, economic and state model is pretty clear, and proly very close to mine, but what do you advocate then?

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

You_Fool wrote:

If you don't know communism that isn't my problem kemp. Forced state ownership is not communism by any measure according to Marx.

Oh? It wasn't? Because I clearly recall Marx calling for revolution in which the workers would take ownership of the means of production. He was very clear. I've read his naive and ignorant manifesto in addition to some other similarly childish works. I can't force you to learn what it is, so all I can do is continue to offer explanations for my statements while you do/can not.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

I have also read it Kemp, and I am pretty sure that he was advocating for an uprising on the oppressed/workers, not the current system. Yes there was a period of dictatorship but this was only necessary to Marx due to the social conditions at the time. The only authoritarian part was the stripping of ownership from the bourgeois, but that isn't necessary for communism, just the revolution as required in 1848.

As I say, just because you do not understand the writings or the system as proposed or the context they were written in is not my problem.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

So when "the people" owned everything, how would they run everything? Obviously, millions of people can't personally have a say in the running of everything from factories to the chicken restaurant down the street.

Sounds a lot like they'd have to use government to run everything that "the people" took ownership of, running everything in the name of "the people."

Sounds a lot like fascism.

You_Fool wrote:

The only authoritarian part was the stripping of ownership from the bourgeois, but that isn't necessary for communism, just the revolution as required in 1848.

You say incoherent things like this, while accusing me of not understanding. Who would the ownership be given to? If your answer is the vague Marxist "the workers should own it," you need to define what that means. It's not self-explanatory, no matter how arrogant you are with your vague pronouncements.

Neither "the workers" nor "the people" are actual entities capable of ownership. These vague terms need to be defined to have meaning. How they could manage and run their property needs to be defined to have meaning.

My guess is your answer to the question of how these terms should be defined would end up looking a lot like government, and you're refusing to give substance to your vague statements because you know that giving government ownership of industry and services is, in fact, fascism.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

...and even if it isn't exactly the same, the effective outcome is still very much the same. So I stand with you on this one Kemp.

@fool:
If you take the third stage or the ideal state of Marx, our current systems in the western world are closest to it in the world. No matter if it is about equality, personal freedom, or power to the people. So I ask again, what type of gov do you advocate? It is easy to say what should be but how would you get there?

Re: The gleat Chinese Dlagon

You proly come claiming you lacked time, but your silence says a lot You_Fool. Its easy to point out what is wrong but not to give an alternative.