Re: ? For Black Wing

ahh XP, I remmeber when that was the hated version...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: ? For Black Wing

yeah now we cling to XP like shipwrecked sailors to flotsam, fearful of the dark blue abyss that is vista

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: ? For Black Wing

I dont have a boss.  Its that simple.  I dont live for that paycheck, and the perceived "Security" it gives.

Also, University Professors are failures in their field.
They are also retired from their field, and wish to kill some time.

Either way, they are not on top of their field.

There are exceptions.......but the majority are how I describe them.

Bunch of angry libs, upset at everything that isnt of their order.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

As I said before, over here it's an honour to be made professor, so they're not the frustrated lot you claim them to be...

And BW, you too are dependent on others, you can't deny that. Your clients' demands always influence you, that's how the economy works...

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: ? For Black Wing

@ Alan

My clients "Demands" are not absolute.  I work off a predetermined contract.  I have time-lines and goals that are set by me, and agreed upon by a client.  After that, its all about meeting the goals.  Thats all I have to answer to.

"Dependent on others?"   Im more "Dependent" on my workers, or my suppliers.  Its not a short-term barter scenario Im in.
Im not "Dependent" on my clients.  They are "dependent" on me.

I dont think you understand the concept: Contractor.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

well they don't hire  YOU they hire your limited liability corporation and the LLC hires you as a consultant right?

then the LLC should pay you in stock.

which you use as collateral to borrow from the LLC.

and demand raises each year

which unfortunately the LLC pays without being able to afford it

and the whole thing goes Chapter 7 in ten years.

and you weep a bitter tear from your yacht

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: ? For Black Wing

Thats the master plan big_smile

Then, I can thank congress for bailing out the bank that made the loan to the LLC that I just bilked......

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

Actually when you file corporate bankruptcy in that situation the US Trustee can sue the officers of the corporation, on behalf of the corporation, for breach of fiduciary duty to the corporation.

So it's vital to add the step of creating an overseas corporation which buys out your LLC.  Then that sucker can go bankrupt in a foriegn jurisdiction.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: ? For Black Wing

Or, I can make sure the LLC has no officers, except me  lol

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

BW: like it or not, your idea of a free market means that the consumers have the power... the right to choose who they give their money too. That is your whole philosophy, the power of the free market. Even if they sign adn agree contracts that you wrote up, you still need to write them so they will like it.

Ie not " you give me money and i do a half-arsed job if i feel like showing up at all." That won't get you moeny now will it? People are free ot choose who ever they like, to choose your company, they need to see the benifit. Either superior quality or reduced price, over a compeitor.


As for uni lecturers, obviously you went to a pretty poor university. I on the other hand went to a top university and had people who had been top of their field outside the academic field, and had come back to give back to the Engineering world and were now top, or near top, of their research fields. 1 of my lecturers (who was ancient) was the top 2 in the world for his area of expertise, which was wood pulp manufacturing processes, so something resonably common. I am afraid of what he would of got in the 'real world' if he hadn't come back to university, but he wanted to pass his wisdom on and as such took the pay cut. It wasn't like he hadn't spent 30-40 years in the industry being the top dog anyway. I am sure he had plenty of money.

This is just one example, the rest of my lecturers were very similar stories, only 1 or 2 quite as successful but still they were all near the top of their fields, definitly not drop outs.

What I am trying to say here BW, is that you are stupid, and its not the rest of societies fault if you can't feel like a real man unless you are in charge of everything and want to feel like you have power. It is not the universities fault if you are unable to comprehend what they are trying to teach you, and the rest of academia is not the same as your third rate university.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: ? For Black Wing

indeed. An employee choses his bos as well. You chose your clients. Both make demands towards their clients/bosses and visa versa. That's how our survivalist economy works: the best fitting survives best...

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: ? For Black Wing

Consumer ?  I dont run a shop.  I have a client that "Contracts" me to run a job.  I set the standards, the goals/time lines and the budget.  I answer to know one.

Im not a salesman.  I dont run a store.  Im a contractor.


"I on the other hand went to a top university and had people who had been top of their field outside the academic field. . . ."

Had been at the top of their field.  ..... Yea, I said that...... HAD being the operative word.

Where are you in your field ??.......


"What I am trying to say here BW, is that you are stupid. . . ."

Isnt that a shock.  All that education.


". . .its not the rest of societies fault if you can't feel like a real man unless you are in charge of everything and want to feel like you have power."

Thats usually how young mush mind Leftists, polluted by the Leftist controlled academia Elite feel about Successful middle class men.

Its ok, just think, If you are successful some day, when you grow up,....... You will have Children call you a Stupid, Power hungry, "wanna be in charge, like you have the power" Man.

"It is not the universities fault if you are unable to comprehend what they are trying to teach you, and the rest of academia is not the same as your third rate university."

20+ Years in my field, 15 Yrs as an owner of a few businesses, Double Major in Economics & History and a Combat Infantryman Veteran.
I think you have a long way to go before you can even begin to judge me son.


@ Alan

I would hope a worker is able to shop his skills to multiple bosses.  I also hope he is not trapped in a Union field that Puts ceilings on his ability to earn a fair wage.

I dont Choose my Clients, Alan.  My clients choose me.  When they choose me, I become the boss of their project. 
All they have to do is hand me the check, and we move on to the next phase.
In between phases, if they breech the contract.....I have the option of walking.  Its something I rarely do, as I said before.  It is bad business to walk, but its also something you must do to survive.  Cant have an overbearing owner.  You learn to pick these types out when you do the intitial meet though.

I kick owners off my work site.  Because it is mine.  Its my insurance on the line, its my contract that I am working on, and even an owner has no place on my job site unless invited.  They can ask questions about how the job is going of course.  They can also close the site down if they wish.  No worries.  Im paid already, it is then they who are in breech of the contract, if I am still on target. ...... Fine close it down......its never happened to me though.  Why would it ?  I always make my goal big_smile

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

No matter if you are a contractor or not, you need to perform to a certian standard expected by those paying the money... in fact possibly more so. You have a contract and in it will be terms on what you will do and to what standard... if you don't then those who were going to pay, or foolishly paid up front, can get upset and not pay/demand their money back. Or maybe next time go to someone else and give them the money, tell all their friends about the bad workmanship or whatever... you lose buissness you lose money. Your income is based on your reputation and the paying consumers perception of your work. You therefore have responsibilities back to the consumer.

If somehow you have managed to find a job where you have no responsibilities for actually doing a good standard of work, get money and not lose customers... then good for you, become a politician... it sounds like what they do.

As for my lecturers, I think you need to do ENG 101 again. The one I was talking about was the top when he was teaching me, i can't vouch for now because he probably has retired... it was a few years back afterall. When he was teaching he was still considered the top of his field. I know this is hard to comprehend for you, being so tied up with wanting to be right and all, but you need to realise that continuing toi argue your point is just going to make you look sillier than you already are... give up, we win..

Oh as for me, I have only really just started thats true, I am not the top of my field, but then I wasn't the top of my class anyway, somewhere near the bottom is a better description... I blame high school personally, i breezed through that and once I made it to uni and had to actually try I was found wanting a bit in my work ethic... of course I have turned that around somewhat, desire to make money and all.. because despite what you think I am not a socialist, I am a liberal, but the one that likes freedoms and lack of government intervention. I also think that middle aged fathers who think they know everything are about as bad as teenage girls...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: ? For Black Wing

"Or, I can make sure the LLC has no officers, except me "

ny allows that? no wonder you guys got the big $$$

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: ? For Black Wing

"I would hope a worker is able to shop his skills to multiple bosses.  I also hope he is not trapped in a Union field that Puts ceilings on his ability to earn a fair wage."

I'm not going to start a discussion about unions, as that will require another thread and I'll be leaving on a vacation tomorrow tongue

"I dont Choose my Clients, Alan.  My clients choose me.  When they choose me, I become the boss of their project.
All they have to do is hand me the check, and we move on to the next phase.
In between phases, if they breech the contract.....I have the option of walking.  Its something I rarely do, as I said before.  It is bad business to walk, but its also something you must do to survive.  Cant have an overbearing owner.  You learn to pick these types out when you do the intitial meet though."

Yes, they chose you, and because of that, they have certain demands, pretty much like a solicitor gets chosen by his boss. When they chose a particular employee, he became boss of that position too (it might be a project). The bosses too pay the employee.
In between phases, a boss has to meet certain agreements too, or the employee walks. Not much difference there is there? In both cases (employee or your situation) the bosses/clients can redraw the position/project. In the first case, you're unemployed and in the 2nd you lose a paying client. I took your comment and paralelled it (by replacing you with an employee). You can twist it and turn it, but from a macro vision it's all the same wink

God: Behold ye angels, I have created the ass.. Throughout the ages to come men and women shall grab hold of these and shout my name...

Re: ? For Black Wing

the difference is actually a huge deal in American employment and liability law.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

67 (edited by Black_Wing 29-Jun-2008 17:22:19)

Re: ? For Black Wing

@ Fool

Why do I even bother with you ?  What contractor does work w/o being paid first ?
If you dont know that concept of business, Contracting..... why bother commenting ?
Do you think the project gets finished, then I get paid ?
Do you think Boeing, or Airbus builds the planes, then gets paid for them ?
Do you think Trump builds a building, then gets paid after its done ?

Obviously, my company does not meet the time line/goal or budget then obviously, I (the Company) am not fulfilling my side of the contract.
In a contract, all material and from what manufacturer are specified. 

". . .no responsibilities for actually doing a good standard of work."
>>Thats breach of contract

ENG101...rofl.... Oh yea.  Im sure I need that.  Yea, your "professor" is god.  I know.  I look silly oh....ahem... Sillier ??
Sillier ..... Nice.  Not one post w/o some insult.........thats why I even wonder why I bother.


"I also think that middle aged fathers who think they know everything are about as bad as teenage girls..."
That's why you are a still a child.  And, my prophecy will one day come true.
You will one day have children, and be judged by children who think they have it all figured out.

"I am not the top of my field, but then I wasn't the top of my class anyway, somewhere near the bottom is a better description... I blame high school personally. . ."

hehe.... No shit.  Like it took a genius to figure that out.  Im no genius.
I agree totally.  You act like you were at the bottom of your class.


@ Alan

I dont know what to say.   Can you kick a boss out of the shop/office ?  No.  He is the project manager.  The CEO is the top, he is the boss.

No "Client" Alan, "Client" can walk on my job site.  Even when its his property.  He is not allowed on my job site w/o my OK.
A boss can walk on the floor of his shop or office.  He pays the workers.
I pay my workers on the job site.  Not the client.
I pay for the supplies, material, tools on the job site, not the client.
The "Client" gives up his rights to be on the job site, when he signs the "Contract."

I own the Contract.....not the client.

I dont know how many ways to explain this.   If you dont understand the concept of what a "Contractor" is....then why bother trying to tell me ?   Why dont you ask me, and I can help you understand......as Im trying to do here.

There is no phase of the "Contract" that I am not prepaid for.  You dont do work, or fund payroll, or purchase material,  w/o the funding already in place.

Can the client pull the funding ??  ROFL>.....sure, then I walk off the site.  And if the client decides to fund the project again.....It costs additional to get me back on site again.  Why?  because it costs money to vacate, and set up again.  Because the client breached the contract once, and it will take a bit more of a funding cushion to get me to accept the contract again.

Do you have a question ??  Or do you wish to tell me my field again ?


EDIT:  Pull the funding.....I mean, not fund the next phase.  Also, the Material for the job is left on site if I walk....again ... walking off a site is very rare.

One more thing.  A owner after a phase can walk on a site, and claim I am not meeting my obligation, and then not fund the next phase.  True...... I have been sued ONCE in 15 years.   I won that suit, and won a counter claim.  The Client was in Breach, ..... and, I won the counter suit.  I received all the material from the site, and a portion of the next round of funding to compensate me for my troubles.  We came to an agreement, and I finished the job for him.   WHY ??  Because Im a nice guy, and he was just stubborn....or....he was trying to get over.  He would have been out a lot of money If I took the material and the penalty.  I made a deal ...what was I to do w/the material ??  Store it until used ?  Better to use it there where intended, and finish the job.  Let him keep the penalty, and put it toward the next phase.   He wins, I win.
The job got done, and we are actually cordial today, and to boot, he has gotten me more work from others.

Thats good business.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

oh bw, you kid... you are so funny... and so wrong...

Obviously contractors in the US have it good then... here they get paid a % upfront and a % when the work is done...

oh and you are gay

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

69 (edited by Black_Wing 29-Jun-2008 20:32:40)

Re: ? For Black Wing

50% up 50% when finished ??? 
You little twat.  What do you think Im doing, painting your mothers kitchen ?
Installing a Water heater ??
You are a FOOL ! ! !


Im gay ??  hehe.

Punk boy.  Run along kid, you bother me.


Ya see.  I wonder why I even bothered.
Punk.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: ? For Black Wing

You_Fool: "BW: like it or not, your idea of a free market means that the consumers have the power... the right to choose who they give their money too. That is your whole philosophy, the power of the free market."

As a staunch proponent of laissez-faire, I beg to differ on this one. Modern day Republicans merely give lip service to the free market economy, the spirit of free trade and isolationism in US politics died with the Old Right.

Caution Wake Turbulence

Re: ? For Black Wing

BW: it doesn't really matter what you actually do, given the fact I was tlaking in generalisations to begin with anyway, i was trying to be more specific for you given the fact your intellect is severley lacking... In any case it doesn't matter how much or when you get paid, because if you get paid you have a responsibility to do the job. Also someone has to have chosen you at some point to do the job, whihc means you have to have met certian criteria they consider to be important to the job they want done. No matter who writes the contract it is still a 2-way system, unless you are in a monopoly, then maybe things are different... but then its not really great right wing economics then is it? Its more left wing.... and since you are right wing that measn you must have competition, and thus muyst met certian standards and thus have expectations to live up to, much like any other employee.

Just face it BW, you belong to the man, he tells you what to do... the "man" owns you!

Acolyte: it was sort of my point that the free market doesn't exisit in the US, and apparently BW's ideas of it are way off as well...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: ? For Black Wing

"I have been sued ONCE in 15 years.   I won that suit, and won a counter claim.  The Client was in Breach, ..... and, I won the counter suit.  I received all the material from the site, and a portion of the next round of funding to compensate me for my troubles.  We came to an agreement, and I finished the job for him.   WHY ??  Because Im a nice guy, and he was just stubborn....or....he was trying to get over.  He would have been out a lot of money If I took the material and the penalty.  I made a deal ...what was I to do w/the material ??  Store it until used ?  Better to use it there where intended, and finish the job.  Let him keep the penalty, and put it toward the next phase.   He wins, I win.
The job got done, and we are actually cordial today, and to boot, he has gotten me more work from others."

crazy ass new yorkers tongue

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.