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Imperial Forum → Politics → The USA Federal services shut down
I see no thread adressing this really, what are your thoughts on this?
Is it the childish behaviour of the republicans or the stubborness of Obama that is the main cause? Who should give in? And why is the administrative system set up so that this can happen?
In the past, has democrats done the same to republicans and the republicans are doing now?
In the 1920s when they first set up federal agencies to regulate the US economy, people sued to have them shut down as unconstitutional.
And the Supreme Court said they were constitutional, for a number of reasons. One was, they were limited to some parts of the economy. if you couldn't stand being regulated by the Food and Drug Administration,you could join the majority of Americans who aren't doing anything regulated by them. And they were optional, so the House and Senate and President could end the agency.
Or, the House could unilaterally refuse to pass funding for the agency. There would still be a law on the books creating that agency, but no money would be spent on it. Any 2 years, the American people could elect a new majority in the House of Representatives that woud refuse to spend money on that agency. So, go solve it that way, said the Court.
Back in 1800, the Democrats were so upset about military spending, they refused to pay for any US Navy warships. We had a Navy bureaucracy but no fleet.
It is a power the House of Representatives "inherited" from the British House of Commons. The King of England could make war as he liked and kill traitors, but he couldn't spend money unless the Commons voted for spending. Administratively, it balances out the fact that the military, law enforcement and diplomatic powers are all combined in one guy.
I'd point out that, by law, they're supposed to have 1 funding bill every year called a budget, and for 5 years the Democrats in the Senate refuse to pass one, because they would have to proclaim how much they want to spend over the next year, and then, if they went over that, come back and admit they couldn't control the spending. And if they did that, people would notice the US debt has doubled over the last 5 years.
Instead of a budget, they insist on temporary spending bills and debt limit votes, so we keep having this fight several times a year.
And the House has voted repeatedly to fund everything BUT those programs, and the Senate keeps refusing to go along.
As for shutdowns, there have been 12 since the 1970s. There haven't been any in Washington since 1995, because from 1995-2001 Clinton was President and the Republicans didn't think the 1995 shutdown was a huge success, and Clinton was more bendable than Obama is. Clinton passed the Defense of Marriage Act and the Welfare Reform law, so by Obama's standards he was a rightwing bigot.
From 2001 to 2007 there was a Republican House and Republican President, so there wasn't going to be a shutdown.
From 2007 to 2009 the Democrat House was trying to be popular and not make Democrats smell, so they'd win the 2008 Presidential election.
From 2009 to 2011 there was a Democrat House and Democrat President, so there wasn't going to be a shutdown.
From 2011 to today, there was a Republican House that is led by asshat wimps who preferred to look L33T by negotiating compromises with Obama, so there hasn't really been a shutdown yet. There is one now because they realized they will lose millions of voters for being lying wimps.
Senator John McCain, supposedy a Republican, got on the Senate floor on TV and said, Obama's election settled it, he won, he gets what he wants, it's up to Republicans to support his stewardship. Even if you agree with him, maybe especially if you agree with him, shouldn't the Democrat he ran against last election have won and been on the Senate floor to make that speech?
The House Republican majority was elected to stop Obamacare. That's what they're doing. We're under no obligation to keep paying for the same mistakes forever.
Maybe they should just privatize government? Corporatocracy run by Republicans Incorporated?
It is childish behavior by both sides, but it seems more blame resides with the GOP. They're butthurt about a bill that was passed years ago, and upheld in the supreme court last year. Imo this is just their way of showing one last time that they're against the ACA. They're holding livelihood of hundreds of thousands of people over the heads of the President and Senate to prove a point. Unless of course they really do think they're going to get their way. TBH, only image I can get in my head when thinking about the whole situation is a few toddler's sitting in a room crying about who the red ball belongs to.
In military affairs, you choose the battles you can win, in order to gain long term advantages in a war.
The GOP has chosen Congress as a Battlezone, even though they do not control the full field of battle. The republicans should have waited until they had a majority of the House and Senate, before attempting to unilaterally defunding or dismantling the Affordable Care Act.
The Tea Party, doesn't give a crap how it's done, or that it would hurt their party in the short or long term. They believe in getting the job done. That's great. But if you don't have wide support, people are going to look at you like your nuts. And that's what many americans are doing.
What's worse is, people lump sum the Tea Party as part and parcel of the Republican party. It is not. This fiasco, has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Tea Party is a seperate political party unto itself, and should be treated accordingly. The Republicans wished to Co-op the Tea Party as a republican party, so that they could control it.
This has shown that the GOP can not control the Tea Party on any level, and are now rail-roaded to work with the Tea Party into a battle that they did not want to fight. The regular republican party members are now scared for their own jobs. And they fear, that they will be seen as foolish idiots that would let the government default on our debt, that they too would have to be replaced. They fear of being replaced by Democrats, giving greater majority control in the house to their enemy.
Which is going to happen whether they come up with a plan or not.
The republican regulars will be replaced by the next election by either Tea Party backed hopefuls, or by Democratic candidates.
Either way, the republican party loses.
"Damn the Torpedoes, full steam ahead," is the battlecry of the Tea party
"Just like Jonah, so to is the republican party...." is the fear of the GOP
"That has to be the most disfunctional family ever." Pretty much the statement of the Democratic party and the vast majority of americans, and the rest of the world.
"The GOP has chosen Congress as a Battlezone, even though they do not control the full field of battle. The republicans should have waited until they had a majority of the House and Senate, before attempting to unilaterally defunding or dismantling the Affordable Care Act."
They never would.
1981 "Gee too bad we don't control the House! If only!"
1982 "Gee too bad we don't control the House! If only!"
1983 "Gee too bad we don't control the House! If only!"
1984 "Gee too bad we don't control the House! If only!"
1985 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1986 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1987 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1988 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1989 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1990 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1991 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1992 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate! If only!"
1993 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate or White House! If only!"
1994 "Gee too bad we don't control the House and Senate or White House! If only!"
1995 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House! If only!"
1996 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House! If only!"
1997 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House! If only!"
1998 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House! If only!"
1999 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House!"
2000 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate and White House!"
2001 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate! If only!"
2002 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate! If only!"
2003 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate! If only!"
2004 "Gee too bad we don't control the Senate! If only!"
2005 "Oh...you thought we were serious?"
^ They still haven't come back from this. This party is not something you bring home to mother.
And because they can't admit they just want votes for complaining about crap they won't fix when they could, they would never get that majority again.
"The republican regulars will be replaced by the next election by either Tea Party backed hopefuls, or by Democratic candidates."
Good riddance.
"They're butthurt about a bill that was passed years ago, and upheld in the supreme court last year. "
So was blacks-to-the-back.
"Imo this is just their way of showing one last time that they're against the ACA. "
Nope, this is from now on. The same people will give orders to 300 million people to pay more for less insurance, and then say we can't deport 20 million illegal aliens cause enforcement is impossible? Get bent.
""That has to be the most disfunctional family ever." Pretty much the statement of the Democratic party and the vast majority of americans, and the rest of the world."
"Functional"? We doubled our national debt in six years, tripled our minimum wage in ten years.
You have to have $10,000 in the bank to earn enough interest to cover the monthly service charge - if you have less than that, you're paying the bank to save your money. When my dad was my age, he earned 7% on every $100 in savings - his savings doubled in 7 years just sitting there.
4 in 10 adults don't work, but we're talking about importing more labor to keep us "competitive".
Compare prices on anything since you started playing this game. And the government reports inflation is 1% a year.
And the Democrat solution to our problems is to order people to pay AT LEAST $400/month on insurance they can't use. I say again you can EITHER use the female birth control package OR the prostate cancer coverage, but you MUST buy both.
1) It's wrong
2) Can't make me x300 million.
Hey I'm republican and even I know that my party is full of idiots.
Every time major legislation comes up, the republican party says, "Well we'll form a committee and do research on it, and get back to you." Even though that, "We'll get back to you..." is several years down the line, usually near election time. Republicans have shown over the course of 25-30 years on how to block, pander, or stretch greatly needed laws or legislation. Either they want to pass historic laws, under the banner of the republican party, or block laws which would be considered historic under the democratic party.
If anything it's an ego trip to a politician. The republican party wouldn't mind the universal health care coverage, but only if they were the one's passing it. That's the only reason why they're pissed about it. Because it was endorsed by the democrats, and passed, the democrats are seen as making history, and that pisses off the GOP. What's worse to the GOP, is if the damn thing works, gets stuck, and stays. Which for some STUPID reason they believe will be the start of the end of the Republican party.
I'd say it's the beginning of the end of the party right now, mostly due to their ignorance on how to fight a proper political battle. Their like trapped wolves, attempting to gnaw off their own foot, in order to escape and their taking the rest of America with them. The Tea Party, I treat like Lemmings. If one goes over the cliff, then the rest of America has to follow, whether American's want to or not.
It even becomes worse, since the Tea Party has deluded themselves into thinking that they can put a "Positive Spin", saying it's all Obama's fault along with the democratic party for not "coming to the table to make a better plan in good faith..."
The law is there. It was presented and voted upon in good faith. It's law. It's enacted. And now the GOP is chained to the Tea Party, and the Tea Party is attempting to jump a cliff and tell the rest of America that the Democratic party pushed them off.
The worst thing currently in America is the Tea Party.
I seen this forum bitch, complain, and debate that what America needed was a Third Party.
Well the Tea Party is that Third party, and now it's costing us dearly.
I seen this forum bitch, complain, and debate that what America needed was a Third Party.
Well the Tea Party is that Third party, and now it's costing us dearly.
What America needed was a third party that wasn't full of idiots....
"The law is there. It was presented and voted upon in good faith. It's law. It's enacted. "
So what? If the Law is God Almighty, how come there's illegal aliens getting driver's licenses in California? Who are you guys kidding with this "Dude, it's the law" crap? So what? What about it? I tell you that doesn't matter, and then what?
It was presented and voted upon in good faith.
No it wasn't by the way. For one thing, it wasn't even written when the Senate passed it. They made amendments verbally and voted before a written final draft came down.
Secondly Obama lied to a number of Senators. They thought they secured agreements that the mandatory plan was not going to fund abortion. As with Obama's promise that people could keep their insurance if they liked it, it was a deliberate lie. The Secretary of Health and Human Services was authorized to come up with a minimum plan. As ordered, she abused that authority to include abortion, unisex condition coverage, and a slew of other freebies to create a bloated "minimum" plan that nobody in America bought on their own. Everybody with a targeted, limited plan has now had their plan outlawed.
Deliberate lies are not "good faith."
furriner perspective of American politics
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlV3oQ3pLA0
@The Yell
Church and state is seperate under U.S. law. That's a bad point.
The Bill, for the Affordable Health Care Act was debated on. Extensively debated upon. The idea was bandied about to different offices. Worked, written, rewritten, redirected, rewritten again...and then voted upon.
The republican party only had to wait till they gained a majority support in the Senate, and have a duelly elected Republican president to tear the damn thing down.
Did the republican party wait? No. Did they attempt to place it as a SEPERATE ITEM OF BUSINESS in the legislature? No. They slapped a bunch of other items onto the Bill in question, in order to derail a law that their party didn't like.
Is that the best course of action...no, not really.
1. "separation of church and state" is not in the constitution. What is in the constitution is a ban on the establishment of religion.
which means declaring the Catholics can't claim a religious exemption for abortion funding, because they don't object to social security, is establishing a federal definition of what a "real" church is going forward. Which is establishing a state church.
2. Obamacare passed in 2010. You know what 2013 funding for Obamacare passed in 2010? $0.
You know what 2013 funding for the Air Force was passed in 2010? $0.
The funding is open to be reduced or eliminated, every year. No Congress is obliged to provide money for past programs.
We have several THOUSAND laws on the books, which are not LISTED in the constitution of the United States of America.
And you know that better than anyone else.
Church is seperate from the state. Or maybe I should have put, Church is seperate from the Federal State. Individual states have individual laws pertaining there of.
Yah as for the laws, the law is the law, but you are right in one respect. Funding is alloted by the Federal government. Even though there are laws and institutions on the books, doesn't mean any of them will receive money. And doesn't say how much money is to be funded for each particular branch of service either.
Although I find it funny, how every year the politicians continually pass bills to increase their yearly pay...doesn't get to many objections.
Maybe if we are to talk about spending, maybe we should talk about spending cuts to the politicians yearly pay. What do you think?
naw pay them in full
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRxr_vzc5m4
Each federal agency is slowly winding it's way through congress, and being funded as we speak. Due in no small part to each individual security risk that is arising for the last week.
Furloughed Food Safety Inspectors were told to head back to work, after a breakout of possible food born illness swept the news. Probably also it didn't help that the news reported that only a couple of their fellows were still working, and they didn't have the manpower to go tracing down where all the contimated foods went to.
007: No cards, Reidfinger.
REIDFINGER: All in.
007: Very well, all in.
REIDFINGER: And raise you $500!
007: Hey, you can't--
REIDFINGER: Yeah, blabbermouth? Raise ya $5000!
007: Crap! I fold!
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