Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Well, we can probably all agree on how Render put it:

Render wrote:

[...] a good leader job requires kompromise & dedikation & aktivity.

And this won't and shouldn't change regardless of any possible changes. The question is how MUCH dedication & activity it needs. And here, too, most agree that it is TOO MUCH.

Torqez wrote:

Where are the good leaders gone, and how can we either get them back, or help create new ones.

Here some might differ but in my humble opinion a good leader does NOT strife for autocratic leadership and micromanaging every single building of every player in the family. Good leadership strifes to empower the players in the family to understand the game and get things done themselves. Everything else gets boring, becomes a hassle or much too time consuming... and players and good leaders leave or aren't willing to do the job anymore or get semi-active (or semi-inactive).

The problem: As of now the mechanics and game strats favour extremely close family coordination. 'I like Pie' has described it well enough:

I like Pie wrote:

(Source: Role Specialization)
Without sounding unfairly critical, my current family in MW is very dependent on me as the leader to coordinate planet trades, infra jumps, fleet ratios, and pretty much just telling everybody what to do.  This sucks because 1) it's quite a bit of tedious and mindless work but more importantly 2) it enables people to be lazy.

I can't entirely blame any one of my family members for losing interest because if somebody else needs to take charge to coordinate such formulaic strategies, what is really left for them to do?  At best you'll get a few people interested in spread expansion strategies or war planning, but really so much of the game is logging in, saying "what are you building?" and then just coordinating aid to get people to a specific OB%.  It's incredibly boring, and places too much responsibility on too few players.

Torqez used a word in another thread that I very much liked: "empower".  I think if we could find a way to further empower individual empires we could make a more rewarding experience for current players and new players alike.  That translates very directly into more competition, and therefore a livlier game.

Or PICKLE ARMY:

[PW2] PICKLE ARMY wrote:

(source):
[...] This game can get pretty boring just doing whatever the leader tells you to do and not really having control of your own empire and just logging in like a drone.  Not really the leaders fault either... if you want to be competitive that is what you have to do.[...]

So there are well described problems and somehow most of them strongly point to that IC has gone into a dead end because specialisation has become an exaggerated imperative.

The other extreme is hardcore rounds with 1-player families.

Both extremes are interesting for some players but obviously not for a big enough crowd to call it a massive multiplayer online game, so the art (and an art it is) is to find the middle ground between too high specialisation on the one hand and a game for lone wolves only on the other hand.

And there were and are quite many suggestions how to tackle this problem and to get IC back on track.

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

this is a good question Torqez. but to dissapoint you there is no good leader. because even if there was a good one, he managed to be good for 1-2-3 rounds, after all got broken. it is too much ego after 3 rounds under 1 commander and the things aren't working as good as were.

a good leader ( for me ) was thorn (with cop/circleofpower) as help. he was active, knew all the tricks in game (with a little help of PP), he knew how to negociate, how to coordonate players around him, how to settle and organize the fam (not only his, but his allies/there were 3 allies in triang ), he was active in forums, and other good things.
what he was lucky.....he had 6 active players around him, that were his neighbours and friends in real life.

you need a lot of things around you to be a good leader, and most of time, it depends on how the guys from your family are. if you get orbit and baratheon and PP in the same family, you will never be a good leader smile

Taranul de oras, cel mai prost animal !
Idiots are ruin the country !

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Altruist wrote:

And there were and are quite many suggestions how to tackle this problem and to get IC back on track.

Can you find and/or elaborate on them?  Because, given this thread (and the "Saving an IC family" thread, I think it's fair to say that most of us know the problems well.  However, I have yet to see a clear solution to it - least something that we can all think will work.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Leaders are pretty rubbish, and currently since no leaders are capable of leading i suggest just removing leaders and allowing diplomacy in basis of family votes to determine each situation.

"It's very quiet on the political arena. I wish someone would stir up some trouble!"

55

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Orbit wrote:

Leaders are pretty rubbish, and currently since no leaders are capable of leading i suggest just removing leaders and allowing diplomacy in basis of family votes to determine each situation.


that would be terrible, a family with more than 50% newbies would be in real disadvantage from the start, without the guide and the advize from an ezperienzed leader.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

No Render,  whats terrible is watching the same selective bunch of noob vets trying to lead families each round and each round ruining the round within the first week. 

IC is not about the best econ,  it's about the best all round family.  But current leaders just want to do econ to win.  And then they believe themselves to be good leaders,  they are not.

"It's very quiet on the political arena. I wish someone would stir up some trouble!"

57

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

That's true, but removing leaders is not the solution, the solution is to kreate new leaders from new players that learn all the faktions of the game, and overall attaking & planning, more than infra & diplomazy, and like I said in my 1st post, the kurrent setup of the gals is not helping to kreate that szenario (too BIG maps, too many NAPs).
An approazhment to a solution would be to design small maps (so people is not able to think they kan have a 50+ systems kore without a fight) and to reduze the amount of NAPs allowed, even restrikt the NAPs to be only allowed passed midround, never at start of the round or early days. (not kounting unoffizial NAPs, no way to kontrol that, sinze they arent offizial, thus they arent real in my eyes).

And I know Torq said map size is based on Feedbak opinions, but honestly I kannot find where in feedbak forums is it told, and even that way, feedbak opinions are just opinions, they kan never be forzed dezisions for the modteam, a good modteam should be able to differ what's good and what's bad for an inkoming round.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Joe, always so grumpy. Lighten up man smile

The burden of leadership is too big for most people to wanna spend time on, atleast when doing it alone. Some fams have no problem delegating the responsebilites to capable and willing fam members but the fams that does suffer alot.

So how about as an internal family mechanic, the interface lets you manage "roles" of different aspects of leadership to different fam members. Have 1 player assigned as head of Relations, who makes naps, declares wars etc. 1 player assigned to manage the familiy infra building (assuming most fams still use the fam bank model), 1 Navigator, a player to do set up family cores and scan them reguarly. And so on, for each aspect of leadership. Also make it possible for 1 person to hold all these roles, if they are willing and the fam deems them capable.

Turn on - Tune in - Drop out

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

nothing will change until the core mechanics of the game involving leaders, naps, attacking, econ is re-structered. this game is too heavily dependent on infra, the teams with most infra and activity win.

60

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Hoffman wrote:

So how about as an internal family mechanic, the interface lets you manage "roles" of different aspects of leadership to different fam members. Have 1 player assigned as head of Relations, who makes naps, declares wars etc. 1 player assigned to manage the familiy infra building (assuming most fams still use the fam bank model), 1 Navigator, a player to do set up family cores and scan them reguarly. And so on, for each aspect of leadership. Also make it possible for 1 person to hold all these roles, if they are willing and the fam deems them capable.

A good leader already does that, spare the tasks, keep the krew entertained with goals or 'missions' appart from the tedious login-ask_for_bank-build-read_instruktions...etz
Also keeping a good sphere at the zhatroom is key, same as koordination and solidarity, bekause Solidarity makes Solid family. 
The goal is to involve them all like a real team in a projekt, that's not to win the round, its HOW you enjoy to win the round.

I think you dont need an internal family mekanik to manage roles, the leader is the one to do that

61 (edited by MotherJedi 03-Sep-2013 10:39:13)

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Render wrote:
Hoffman wrote:

So how about as an internal family mechanic, the interface lets you manage "roles" of different aspects of leadership to different fam members. Have 1 player assigned as head of Relations, who makes naps, declares wars etc. 1 player assigned to manage the familiy infra building (assuming most fams still use the fam bank model), 1 Navigator, a player to do set up family cores and scan them reguarly. And so on, for each aspect of leadership. Also make it possible for 1 person to hold all these roles, if they are willing and the fam deems them capable.

A good leader already does that, spare the tasks, keep the krew entertained with goals or 'missions' appart from the tedious login-ask_for_bank-build-read_instruktions...etz
Also keeping a good sphere at the zhatroom is key, same as koordination and solidarity, bekause Solidarity makes Solid family. 
The goal is to involve them all like a real team in a projekt, that's not to win the round, its HOW you enjoy to win the round.

I think you dont need an internal family mekanik to manage roles, the leader is the one to do that


Render is right here. its what the VL tags are for, if the leader deems it necessary.
unless, of course, the leaders name is Lee or H4e. these guys in my opinion are the best leaders i've played with in a long time for these reasons - their attitude towards the game, their unwavering loyalty to their current families, their knowledge and planning abilities and also their way of making a family 'excited' about playing the round together. neither have patience with fools and both forgive mistakes and both try to educate the new players. neither of them is perfect either but they sure make a fun round

in other words, it takes a special (for want of a better word) person to successfully lead and the faults in the game are not really on the leaders.
the answers that torq and co are looking for are already in the forums under various headings/topics. its just a matter of piecing together small parts from lots of ideas

I believe in angels and unicorns

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Lee i agree with you but partial.
in my first rounds in triangulum, we had specific roles, based on activity.
i was the one responsable with spec ops. i random infiltrate all players from a family to see what they have (eco, buildings, resources) and so on.
a friend of my was responsable with core checking. everyday using vip he was making list of systems with top 15 fams.
another one was responsable with magic (pax) he helped me with ops and killing pop bankers.
and the list can continue.

Orbit is right....but only if you have a fam of pro players who like the game very much.

the game is a little too hard, and if you have big infra is hard to put someone down.
i played another online game like IC, but it doesn't matter how many "planets you had" in any time of the game another fam could bring you to nothing a little easy. that way everyone was always ready

Taranul de oras, cel mai prost animal !
Idiots are ruin the country !

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

exactly infra is too stong and smaller families should get a higher attack bonus, cheaper units i dont know but something to empower the small fams, that way it balances the familys. no fam should win a round because they made the most infra. but atm thats how it is and how its been for a while.

You will then see new, good leaders. Toppling the few.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

MotherJedi wrote:

its just a matter of piecing together small parts from lots of ideas

Yep, and that's what I'm looking for help with.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

btw T since ive been back ive noticed how hard you have been working and just wanted to let you know your doing a great job.

If your not first your last

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

It is not the leaders who should be blamed for focusing on econ Orbit. They want to win the round, or end as high as possible. And since strong econ is a must-have if you want to win the round...

So, like Lee said, it is the game who should be restructured (if you want it to change). Don't blame the player, blame the game.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Okay so we seem to be in general consensus, that perhaps there is too much focus on Econ.

So how do we bring in a shift?

One idea I had a while back, is to scale the Empire OB a bit more. Ie instead of having it linear, we could make it that the higher fams are penalised more. That way it's less economical for for them to just keep infraring.

Keep in mind 2things though:
1. We want to promote attacking, yet we we need to also stop the mindless farming. We definitely don't want to make it  that top fams will farm more to stay at the top.
2. We We don't to disadvantage top fams completely, cos if you've worked yourself to be a top fam, it's cos you've worked for it.

68 (edited by Lee 04-Sep-2013 15:49:16)

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Easy

IF a family's NW is under a certain % of the opposing family there at war with the smaller family get decreased unit/build costs and the higher NW family receives Unit cost penalty's, the bigger the margin the bigger the penalty and so on. this would create chances for smaller fams to hit bigger fams without them being fed on 1st. War Dec would be needed.

As for infra, it needs to be overhauled completely and including again decreased infra costs for smaller family's and higher costs for the top fams ect, this will balance economy's between the whole galaxy, this would have to be automatic, im not sure about %'s but thats me 2 cents.

overall i think that would bring better game-play, and keep new players, because as it stands it may look great but the core game-play stays the same and new players feel surplus and leave.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

infra is already more expensive for bigger fams with the empire size costs - the fact you can overrule this by taking all of someones planets and building on them with massive construction bonus maybe needs sorting out.

as for making units cheaper for fams that are at war with bigger fams, why couldnt a smaller fam just declare with a friends bigger fam and then get cheaping units so they can attack families their own size at a cheaper cost.

could all be abused.

70 (edited by Lee 04-Sep-2013 18:25:28)

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

#could all be abused.

Like most features in IC then tongue

and no the empire size costs dont mean jack, becuase for a good while into the round only researchers are making big infra jumps, for bankers, bankers build expos whilst its cheap....by the point u stop using researchers ur family all has sick science anyway so they become surplus, they get abused fast growth and outgrow the galaxy u know how it works mate uv been in my familys many times.

that itself is abuse when you think about it. abusing a feature to do big banker jumps cheap avoiding penalty's for a faster start

and this is what the problem is. Infra, Jumps, all of it.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Torqez wrote:
Altruist wrote:

And there were and are quite many suggestions how to tackle this problem and to get IC back on track.

Can you find and/or elaborate on them?  Because, given this thread (and the "Saving an IC family" thread, I think it's fair to say that most of us know the problems well.  However, I have yet to see a clear solution to it - least something that we can all think will work.

Most interesting and to the point was probably this thread:
* Feedback: Role Specialization

While this thread is quite disappointing so far:
* What is your Single Biggest Change to IC?
except Jaguar's post:
* http://imperialconflict.com/forum/viewt … 0#p1681590
I don't agree with Jaguar's opinion about Stefan because he and MasterMike did make one of the best or even the best MMPOGs of its time. But it is certainly true that a game like IC needs the constant attention of a designer to keep it on track (and to oppose the creative minds of the players to find ways to "spoil" the game).

I am aware that you have either already read those and other posts or that you or another Developer or Mod have posted them even themselves. Thus I guess you didn't find those suggestions enough, therefore I would like to suggest a broader approach.

Suggestion for a to-do-list:

0) Program Code and Coding
Open, closed, ownership, who is coding...

A general rework of the game mechanics needs IMHO mainly to include:

1) Design
a) General description of the game
b) Basic guidelines every change has to fit into

2) Changes (mechanics)
a) List of general changes
b) List of specific changes including what's the intention of the change and what exactly it is supposed to do
c) Comparison with and adjustments according to 1) Design: Do the changes fit?

Not really belonging to mechanics but needs attention:

3) Misc
a) Player base
b) Interface
c) Money

Feedback:
In general it is good to get as much input from the players as possible. The impact of input, though, should be valued quite differently:
For interface questions the input of players should be valued highly.
Design and changes of the mechanics should be made and decided in a tight closed designer group while the input of players are mere ideas to get the designer group thinking.

Some comments:
About 3a) Player base is lower than in beta 1 and quite a problem.

About 3b) From what I've heard and read much progress has been made with the interface, especially the map.

About 3c) Money: Is there any money coming in at the moment or a concept for it?

About 1)  and 2)
Probably the points were I can add my most constructive input but no time now, I'll try to collect and write down some stuff next time I pass by.

Another old bloodstained Harkonnen.

72

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Torqez wrote:

One idea I had a while back, is to scale the Empire OB a bit more. Ie instead of having it linear, we could make it that the higher fams are penalised more. That way it's less economical for for them to just keep infraring.

This is a good idea, but let me tell you how its perfekt:  add a building top, allow planets only be OB to 100%, in the way a planet sized 250 kan only support a maz infra of 500. 
The differenzes between top fams and midtable fams wont be so big, the NW gap for attaking will be reduzed and there'll be a lot more konflikts/wars and for onze what makes the differenze will be the amount of planets you have, and the 'builders' or 'researzhers' job will be limited (so they dont feel like slaves anymore?)

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Not a bad idea with a max cap for OB, tho 100% sounds a bit low. Maybe 200 or 300 imo. It would certainly promote more fighting and less infra. This would also reward strategic families that trades planets internaly to high focus players, like popbanker or main resourcer etc. That way skill and coordination is rewarded, not only who has the best infraplanner.

Turn on - Tune in - Drop out

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

I don't really like the idea of limiting OB.  I mean, what's the point?  Economy "is" still an important part of the game.  We just want less focus on it, right?  I mean otherwise, we may as well just skip explo phase, randomly allocate planets to everyone and give them prebuilt 300% plaents with infra.  That way people can get into the fighting straight away..

No, but, it "is" nice when a coordinated fam, with good strategising can gain superior advantage through Eco - it's just we need a less focus on it - not to get rid of it completely.  Also, being eco focused, is still viable part of the game (we still want bankers to compete with each other, make money, produce resources etc - not everyone likes to attack).

Like I said, I think we just need to shift the focus away from it.  Ie, make it less dependent on the success of your fam.

Perhaps increase OB% costs (e.g. reduce planet sizes by half).  That way it's going to get really expensive to OB really quickly.  Don't know, I'm sure there are other ideas!  Another one could be (don't know, just thinking out loud), that regardless of individual networths, if a small fam takes a planet off a bigger fam, they always keep the infra.  Whereas if a big fam takes off a small fam, they lose it.  This way small fams attacking bigger fams (even if they jump an attacker big to do so), will have a jump start in consolidating allt he planet gains - assuming they keep them).

Altruist, will reply to your post later.

Re: The Best IC Leaders - Today

Only thing I see the OB cap resulting in is mass farming for planets, as the only way to increase your economy will be to gain planets. Families will seek to increase their advantage over rivals by gathering masses of planets from smaller families.

Due to all the planet grabbing the gap between families with big amounts of planets and families with small amounts of planets may just as well increase.

A scaled/exponential OB cost may be a good idea, although must be thought out through and through in advance to theorymonger on prevention of above.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.