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Re: The letter C

Almost. Here is a complete list.
using k for hard C sound like in complicated->komplikated
using s for ch, sh and other c sound like in civilization->sivilization or combined with k like in school-> skool
using sj for ch like in chips -> sjips
using Z instead of X
using ks instead of x like my ex-wife->eks-wife
using k instead of Q faqir->fakir quebec->kebek
using kw instead of qu question-> kwestion

We can use it the same way in dutsj btw. I will think about German, Frensj and Spanish tomorow.
and from now on we will be typing either an azerty or a werty keyboard.

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Re: The letter C

Axe that list, it is extreme, and no good on the expiration

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28 Reply by Render

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Re: The letter C

Aks that list, it is eztreme, and no good on the ekspiration

I dont agree wirth "using sj for ch like in chips -> sjips"

I've been writing zhips, zhange, zheking, and its perfektly understandable, no need for "sj" at all

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Re: The letter C

Render wrote:

I dont agree wirth "using sj for ch like in chips -> sjips"

I've been writing zhips, zhange, zheking, and its perfektly understandable, no need for "sj" at all


Since we aren't using q or qu anymore, we can use q for the 'ch' sound.  smile   yikes  wink

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Re: The letter C

Oh!  And x we can use for 'sh' !!!  smile smile big_smile

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31 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 05:27:10)

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Re: The letter C

I have been inspired by the idea of how to use capital letters to solve the problem with there being too many vowel sounds.  Also, now that the letter 'c' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'th', just as how now that the letter 'q' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'ch' and now that the letter 'x' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'sh'.

Capital vowels would indicate the long sound of that vowel, while the small vowel would indicate the short sound of that vowel, and in the case of the letter C, a capital letter 'C' can be used for the voiced 'th' as in the word 'th'is and the small 'c' for the non-voiced 'th' sound as in the word 'th'ink.

See the change in the way we might now use letters differently:

wun uv Cu rEalIzAxns I hav had wIl bEing in eksIl is Cu rEdikUlusnes wic whiq wE yUz letrs - bOc vawels and konsonants.

Translation:

One of the realizations I have had while being in exile is the ridiculousness with which we use letters - both vowels and consonants.

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32 Reply by Little Paul (edited by Little Paul 24-Aug-2013 09:22:48)

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Re: The letter C

@render
"Aks that list, it is eztreme, and no good on the ekspiration"
ekstreem you mean tongue

"I've been writing zhips, zhange, zheking, and its perfektly understandable, no need for "sj" at all"
there are pro and cons. Altough it would be simpler for kids with sj, z will type quicker. The biggest point in favor of sj is that you give z two different sounds whereas s stays the same hence simplifying the alphabet. So tough question there. But I can live with that. Its a huge step forward.

@einstein:
"Axe that list, it is extreme, and no good on the expiration"
A kid can learn how to spell by just learning the letters of the alphabet (with 3 less letters to learn as a bonus). For us it seems complicated but for someone who starts from zero its much easier. The economic advantage is huge, even if the kids used the extra time for play.

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33 Reply by Render

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Re: The letter C

Little Paul wrote:

@render
"Aks that list, it is eztreme, and no good on the ekspiration"
ekstreem you mean tongue

ekstrim in that kase tongue  given the meanin' of the word itself

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Re: The letter C

Even better, lol.

Maybe we should make levels. We can never win the case for all of these rules at once. Einstein has a point there.
Level 1:
C:
using k when a single* C sounds like one
using s when a  single* C sounds like one
X:
using ks when a single* x sounds like one
using Z when a  single* X sounds like one
Q:
using k when a q sounds like one (so kuestion for now)

L2
In level 2 we include the ch, sh, qu etc

L3
In level 3 we replace more complicated things.

Level 1 is easily explained and makes the biggest difference. Its almost 2 to 4 hours less in school each year from the age they start to learn how to read and write! That alone is a huge economic advantage. It also saves on editors and spelling programs and makes it easier for non-natives to learn English. The list of pro's is endless.

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35 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 20:32:29)

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Re: The letter C

Im just gOing tU strt yUzing letrz az I sE fit akOrding tu Cu sistim I sE dEvelOping and scrU evrEwun els if CA dOnt agrE.  Cu sistim is fOnetikaly saOnd and fEzibl.  Cr iz nO mOr enE nEd fOr sIlent 'E'z Or dum dubl letrs.  olsO, kompaOnd letrz fOr saOndz lIk 'er' and 'ar' kan bE rEplAst wic just 'r', eksept Cat fOr 'or' wE nEd tu yuz 'Or' and fOr CE 'ow' saOnd wE nEd tu yuz 'aO'.  if yu rElE cink abaOt it, Cu sistim wrks verE wel.

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36 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 20:36:33)

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Re: The letter C

stil, Cr nEdz tu bE sum impruvments, sins Cer iz stil a problem wic Cu letrs Cat mAk Cu saOndz 'ar', and 'er'.  wE kin yUz 'Or' fOr 'or', and 'Ur' fOr 'our' az in Cu wrd 'tour' and wE kin yUz 'aOr' fOr 'our' Or 'ower' az in Cu wrd 'flour' Or 'tower' and wE kin yUz 'er' fOr 'air', and fOr Cu saOnd 'ar' wE kin use 'or' and fOr the 'er' saOnd wE kin just use 'r'. 

(I apolOjIz fOr enE tIpOz.  it iz trikE tIping Cis wA)

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37 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 20:38:05)

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Re: The letter C

wE kin yUz 'er' fOr Cu 'air' saOnd and 'or' fOr Cu 'ar' saOnd.

ekzamplz:

'word' = wrd

'warred' = word


mOr ekzamplz fOr yUzing 'r' saOndz:

'hours' = aOrs

'poor' = pUr

'more' = mOr

'cheer' = xEr

'dare' = dAr

'far' = for

lastlE, Cu regUlr 'er' saOnd az in 'purr' wE kin just yuz 'r'

'purr' = 'pr'

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38 Reply by Little Paul (edited by Little Paul 24-Aug-2013 20:24:52)

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Re: The letter C

"I have been inspired by the idea of how to use capital letters to solve the problem with there being too many vowel sounds.  Also, now that the letter 'c' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'th', just as how now that the letter 'q' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'ch' and now that the letter 'x' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'sh'."

Although it will type faster, it would go against the logic of abandoning using one letter to create a double sound and also keep more letters into the system. It also makes your text unreadable for people unfamiliar with your system unless
they are willing to do an effort. Abandoning k,c and x makes it easier instead and so would be easier accepted by the public.

I do like the idea of getting rid of the vowels though, you make a good point there. But using capitals is not always possible, so maybe we should think about a better system. I think on that tomorrow.

One possibility would be using 2 vowels for a long sound: moor instead of more but morbid stays morbid. You can then abandon many duals like in posible. Again, I'll think about it tomorrow.

In any case those things won't be as easy and effective as getting rid of CQX. Maybe if someone pushes a new alphabet he should focus on that or resistance would be to high anyway.

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39 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 21:09:02)

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Re: The letter C

Little Paul wrote:
Xeno wrote:

"I have been inspired by the idea of how to use capital letters to solve the problem with there being too many vowel sounds.  Also, now that the letter 'c' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'th', just as how now that the letter 'q' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'ch' and now that the letter 'x' has been freed, it is useful as the letter 'sh'."

Although it will type faster, it would go against the logic of abandoning using one letter to create a double sound
and also keep more letters into the system.

Cer iz stil wrk tU bE dun on it, but yUzing q fOr 'ch', x fOr 'sh', 'c' fOr unvOEst 'th', and 'C' fOr vOEst 'th' haz olredE helpt a lot tU kut daOn on Cu numbr uv letrs nEded.  and I cink it iz posibl tU solv mOr problems if wE yUz srtin kapital konsonants fOr srtin cings...   


Little Paul wrote:

it also makes your text unreadable for people unfamiliar with your system unless
they are willing to do an effort. Abandoning k,c and x makes it easier instead and so would be easier accepted by the public.

Cis iz a gud pOEnt.  mI intent iz tU solv Cu fonetikal insanitE inherent tU Cu inglix lAnguij sO Cat mAbE it bEcums EzEr fOr lrnrs uv inglix az a sekund lAnguij tU lrn kOrekt prOnunsEAxun bI fOnetik analisis wIl simplE rEding tekst.  it wud mAk inglix EzEr tU lrn.

Little Paul wrote:

I do like the idea of getting rid of the vowels though, you make a good point there. But using capitals is not always possible, so maybe we should think about a better system. I think on that tomorrow.

OkA

Little Paul wrote:

One possibility would be using 2 vowels for a long sound: moor instead of more but morbid stays morbid. You can then abandon many duals like in posible. Again, I'll think about it tomorrow.

but Cis yUzes mOr letrs

Little Paul wrote:

In any case those things won't be as easy and effective as getting rid of CQX. Maybe if someone pushes a new alphabet he should focus on that or resistance would be to high anyway.

I cink wE nEd tU yUz kapital konsonant letrs bEsIdz just C fOr srtin cings, but kant sE wut fOr eksaktlE yet.  I wil cink abaOt it mOr...

bI Cu wA, it iz geting EzEr and mOr fun tU rIt Cis wA. smile

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40 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 24-Aug-2013 22:45:06)

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Re: The letter C

OkA, haO abaOt Cis:

wE dOnt Uz kapitol c as vOEst 'th'; wE just Uz c fOr bOc vOEst and unvOEst 'th', and wE Uz kapitol letrs (boc konsonants and vaOls) and numbrs wen wE wont tU sA cu saOnd uv cu nAm uv cu letr Or numbr.

Xamplz:

cu wrd 'tea' kin bE Xprest az 'tE' or just 'T'

cu wrd 'to' kin bE Xprest az 'tU' or just '2'

cu wrd 'existence' kin be Xprest az 'eksistens' or 'Xis10s' or 'Xistens' or eksis10s...

Or mAbE not Uz numbers - cat mIt mAk it tU difikult tU rEd.  I dU, haOevr, cink wE xud Uz kapitol konsonants fOr cu saOnd uv cu nAm uv cu letr.

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41 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 01:57:59)

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Re: The letter C

if wE dU cis, wE xud qAnj sum uv cu nAmz uv cu letrs uv cu alfabet tU sumcing mOr sUtabl tU aOr prpusez.  cu nAmz uv cu letrs uv cu alfabet xud bE qanjd tU sum uv cu mOst comon saOndz in cu inglix lAnguij.  cis wud help a lot.

cu frst nAm uv letr uv cu alfabet cat xud bE qAnjd iz cu letr 'u'.  fOr mI prpusez, cu letr 'u' xal naO bE rEfrd tU az 'U' az cE 'oo' saOnd in cu wrd 'glue', lIk cu frenq dU.

wink

Im alsO cinking uv qAnjing cu nAm uv cu letr 'Z' sins it iz not vArE yUsful, and bEkoz cu amerikans, britix, etc. ol sEm tU disagrE on wot it xud bE kald.  sO, I am cinking uv kaling cu letr 'Z' 'ez' insted of 'zee' or 'zed'.  if wE kal it 'ez' insted, it kin bE yUsful fOr wrdz lIk 'pieces' (wiq wud bEkum 'pEsZ').

mOr l8r, mAbE. cat iz Enuf fOr naO.

Ofixal letr nAm xanjZ:

'U' nAm qanjd tU 'oo' az in 'two'.
'Z' nAm qanjd tU 'ez' az in 'pieces'

* krentlE undr konsidrAxun iz wat tU xAnj cu nAm uv cu letr 'W' tU, fOr it iz a rElE silE nAm fOr a letr - not yUsful at ol.

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Re: The letter C

OK, sO, wIl cinking abaOt 'W', I cot anucr letr nAm wE xud qanj iz "Q".  it iz not yUsful.  just az wE qanjd 'U' tU 'oo', wE xud qanj cu nAm uv 'Q' tU 'koo' az in cu wrd 'sudoku', wiq wud naO bEcum 'sUdOQ'.

olsO, if wE R gOing tU yUz numbrz, wE wil hav to qanj cu nAmz uv sum uv cu numbrz.  rElE OnlE cu numbrz 2, 4, 8, R uv enE Us.

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43 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 19:41:13)

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Re: The letter C

Ofixol letr nAm xAnjZ:

'U' nAm qAnjd tU 'oo' az in 'two'.
'Z' nAm qAnjd tU 'ez' az in 'pieces'
'Q' nAm qAnjd tU 'koo' az in 'sudoku'

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44 Reply by Little Paul (edited by Little Paul 25-Aug-2013 09:33:35)

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Re: The letter C

It all depends on your goals really:
*Simplify the alphabet
*Make it easier to learn to read and write for starters (eg kids)
*Make sure there is only one way to pronounce something without exceptions like in the Spanish language
*Make it easy to learn and comprehend for people who used the current alphabet

In that case using extra letters qxc isn't a good way.
If your goal is typing faster by using less letters it is. But an easy to type language develops automatically where people chat whereas what kids have to learn doesn't.

"but Cis yUzes mOr letrs"
but it saves on double consonants, simplifies writing and makes it easier to read.

Maybe you should focus on creating a chat language as that is clearly where you are heading. Sacrificing easiness for rapid typing but making it more complicated.

As I said, maybe we should push getting rid of QXC first (level one). Everybody will understand what you are typing and everybody will be able to read or write it without an effort. We could do it here in IC-forums and it will spread easy. I think you want too much at once.

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45 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 18:54:37)

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Re: The letter C

"In that case using extra letters qxc isn't a good way."

cu problem iz cat wE aktUalE nEd mOr letrs fOr al uv cu difrent saOndz cat cer R in cu inglix lAnguij.  wE nEd a singl letr fOr Eq fOnEm.

"A given language will use only a small subset of the many possible sounds that the human speech organs can produce, and (because of allophony) the number of distinct phonemes will generally be smaller than the number of identifiably different sounds. Different languages vary considerably in the number of phonemes they have in their systems (although apparent variation may sometimes result from the different approaches taken by the linguists doing the analysis). The total phonemic inventory in languages varies from as few as 11 in Rotokas and Pirahã to as many as 141 in !Xũ.[13]"

if wE R tU hav a yUnivrsol set uv fOnEms Eq reprEzented bI a letr, wE wil nEd 141 letrs.

but in inglix, lukilE, cer R apArentlE OnlE 44:

if, cen, wE R OnlE gOing tU adjust cu inglix alfabet sO it fInalE mAks fOnetik sens, wE wil nEd mAbE 20 mOr letrs.

http://www.tedpower.co.uk/folkchart.htm

bI qAnjing cu nAmz uv cu letrs uv cE alfabet and yUzing kapitol letrs tU XprS cu saOnd uv cu nAm uv cu letrs, wE sudenlE hav mOr can Enuf letrs fOr ol uv cu fOnEmz in cu inglix lAnguij.

sO naO yU sE, I hOp, wI wE kant get rid uv XQC (wE nEd cem) and wI wE nEd tU qanj cu nAmz uv sum uv cu letrs.

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46 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 19:12:12)

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Re: The letter C

wE hav 26 letrs in cE alfabet.  bI yUzing cu kapitolz az saOnds, wE naO get 52 letrs.  wE olsO hav 10 numbrz, wiq kin giv us a tOtal uv 62 yUsful kRaktrs tU yUz tU reprEzent fOnEmz.  cis qud bE Enuf fOr mOst lAnguijZ if wE rEnAm cu letrs and numbrs tU yUsful, komonlE yUzd saOndz.

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47 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 19:43:26)

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Re: The letter C

Ofixol letr nAm qAnjZ:

'U' nAm qAnjd tU 'oo' az in t'oo'.
'Z' nAm qAnjd tU 'ez' az in piec'es'
'Q' nAm qAnjd tU 'koo' az in sudo'ku'
'W' nAm qAnjd tU 'oo' az in w'oo'd'

Ofixol letr saOnd qAnjZ:
'c' saOnd qAnjd tU 'th' az in 'th'ink and 'th'ere (cis mIt bE qanjd agen l8r)
'x' saOnd qAnjd tU 'sh' az in wa'sh'
'q' saOnd qAnjd tU 'ch' az in 'ch'eese

wE stil nEd letrz fOr:

'oy' az in b'oy'
'ow' az in c'ow'
'ng' az in ri'ng'

Ofixol letr nAm and saOnd qAnjZ undr rEvyU:

'c' az bOc vOEst 'th' and unvOEst 'th'
'x' az bOc vOEst 'sh' (az in cu wrd lei's'ure) and unvOEst 'sh' (az in 's'ure)

*I wWd lIk tU sE tU letrs yUzd fOr Eq

aftr cEz ixUz R sOrted aOt, wE kin cen wrk on haO tU qAnj letr and numbr nAmz so cat komonlE yUzd fEnOmz frum ucr lAnguijZ cat Rnt yUzd in inglix kin olsO bE inklUded

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Re: The letter C

ultimately our goal should be to reduce language to as few as possible, thus we become computers speaking 01011110111011101010101001011010010110011011

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49 Reply by Xeno (edited by Xeno 25-Aug-2013 20:30:28)

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Re: The letter C

updAted:

Ofixol letr nAm qAnjez:

'U' nAm qAnjd tU 'oo' az in t'oo'.
'Q' nAm qAnjd tU 'koo' az in sudo'ku'
'W' nAm qAnjd tU 'oo' az in w'oo'd'
*'Z' nAm qAnjd tU vOEst 'sh' az in lei's'ure

Ofixol letr saOnd qAnjez:
'c' saOnd qAnjd tU 'th' az in 'th'ink and 'th'ere (cis mIt bE qanjd agen l8r)
'x' saOnd qAnjd tU unvOEst 'sh' az in wa'sh'
'q' saOnd qAnjd tU 'ch' az in 'ch'eese

wE stil nEd letrz fOr:

'oy' az in b'oy'
'ow' az in c'ow'
'ng' az in ri'ng'

Ofixol letr nAm and saOnd qAnjez undr rEvyU:

'c' az bOc vOEst 'th' and unvOEst 'th'


aftr cEz ixUz R sOrted aOt, wE kin cen wrk on haO tU qAnj letr and numbr nAmz so cat komonlE yUzd fEnOmz frum ucr lAnguijez kin olsO bE inklUded

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Re: The letter C

I'm still ahead for my translation of Hamlet

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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