1 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 17:42:07)

Topic: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

I had an idea that could solve most of the world's problems.  The elite have been complaining there are too many people, professors and such saying that the availability of resources will become scarcer and there will be wars over water and oil, etc., that climate change will cause food crises, and that, essentially, because population is reaching unsustainable levels, there is a clear and pressing danger of a collapse of civilization as we know it. 

And in spite of these warnings, the majority of nations are continuing down that road to collapse.  The crux of the matter is that the technology that could be used to solve the problems is held by various parties who are not willing to share, for various reasons, be it because of national security concerns or financial concerns.

The current path, then, is to continue to allow the increasing scarcity of resources to continue, continue to allow global climate change to have its various disastrous impacts, and, finally, to let nature run its course and allow the global population to 'fall' to a more sustainable level (back to 2 billion perhaps).  Then the survivors - the rich, elite people with the technology and political power to prevent this - can rebuild (maybe they'll call it humanity 2.0).

Instead of just letting us kill ourselves off, let's build big space ships and start shipping people off to different planets.   

If the elite, rich people went first, it would be better.  Firstly, they are the ones who use the most resources per capita, and, secondly, they'll have to leave their big houses and other fancy stuff behind. wink Also, and perhaps the best of all, because they won't be around anymore, they'll no longer insist on the rest of us doing things their way (which is clearly not working out too well). 

So let's build them space ships.  Of course, if they don't want to go, that is fine.  Poor people can go instead and they can stay here if they really want.

The idea must be that it would be free for anyone to go.

The only thing we have to make sure of is that we'll be building more than enough space ships for everyone or else it won't work, I'm afraid.  If we aren't intending right from the start to build enough for anyone who wants to to go, then there will be wars over who gets to go and, well, probably no one will end up actually going...

Seriously, the solution is for enough people to be regularly setting off for other planets to keep the human population levels of Earth at sustainable levels - it's a better idea than what we're doing now, isn't it (wars, starvation, etc.)?

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Until we find a planet that we can confirm is hospitable to life and/or developing terraforming to the point of practicality, no this isn't a better idea than wars, starvation, etc.  Space travel requires a huge amount of money and resources.... the few "space tourists" that have gone into space...barely outside our own atmosphere as generally it is an orbital trip....have all paid 20-40 million...for a single person.  The price of space travel increases exponentially for each lb that needs to be carried out of orbit (I'm sure there is a threshold at some level where this isn't true, but I'm no rocket scientist) so the cost of just building 1 spaceship that could carry 1000 people into space would be astronomical...let alone the amount of fuel that would be needed to get to an inhabitable planet.

If we wanted to kill a bunch of people bullets are far cheaper.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

3 (edited by Xeno 20-Aug-2013 16:08:46)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Ya!  The more I think about it, the better it sounds: instead of military and secret agencies spying on their own people and starting and waging wars, etc., to suit their respective rich, elites' interests, maybe the world's militaries could start building spaceships for them?

4 (edited by Xeno 20-Aug-2013 16:33:37)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Undeath wrote:

Until we find a planet that we can confirm is hospitable to life

The ships could be designed to house and sustain large population indefinitely, and so there would be no need to find a suitable planet first.  They can just go and find one while they're out there.

And the technology we would develop by doing this would help alleviate resource scarcity here.


Undeath wrote:

and/or developing terraforming to the point of practicality, no this isn't a better idea than wars, starvation, etc.

I think it is a better idea, and I think most people, especially the poor starving people who are being killed, would think so too.


Undeath wrote:

Space travel requires a huge amount of money and resources.... the few "space tourists" that have gone into space...barely outside our own atmosphere as generally it is an orbital trip....have all paid 20-40 million...for a single person.

We have the capacity to fund it with the current military budgets of the world.


Undeath wrote:

The price of space travel increases exponentially for each lb that needs to be carried out of orbit (I'm sure there is a threshold at some level where this isn't true, but I'm no rocket scientist) so the cost of just building 1 spaceship that could carry 1000 people into space would be astronomical...let alone the amount of fuel that would be needed to get to an inhabitable planet.

I think a better idea than leaving directly from Earth with big spaceships would be for people to get to the moon first by some sort of train system or elevator, and then board the colonization ships that could be built in space, with resources we can shoot into orbit or get from the asteroid belt.  It's all feasible, having been thought of for centuries now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Verne
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Earth_to_the_Moon


" In 1638 Bishop John Wilkins wrote A Discourse Concerning a New World and Another Planet, in which he predicted a human colony on the Moon.[6]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Moon


I can give more links if you really want, but, generally, it has been well documented with ideas bantered about for hundreds of years.  We know how to do it...

Undeath wrote:

If we wanted to kill a bunch of people bullets are far cheaper.

/me is horrified by Undeath's jadedness.

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Instead of continuing to shoot ourselves in the foot, why don't we shoot ourselves into space?

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Oh, don't get me wrong the idea of space travel is great.  Sadly I had to learn about the practical bits of space travel during 2 years living with future rocket scientist DYT...and I don't think you have even a small grasp on that tongue

Do you have any idea how much it would cost to build a ship that would be able to hold a large amount of people indefinitely?  Military budgets aren't actually infinite they just seem that way.

Example, the estimated cost of the ISS is $150 billion USD.  The ISS can support 3 people indefinitely or 10 people for around a month before the oxygen regeneration units begin to get overworked.  For the purpose of these calculations we'll double 3 assuming that they err on the side of caution.

So keeping 6 people in a relatively stationary unit costs $150 billion, we weren't talking about a space station you were talking about ships, so this isn't even taking into consideration fuel costs and maintenance to key engine bits.

So it takes $25 billion to keep 1 person in space indefinitely.

The US Military budget is just under $700 billion.  If the US, one of the biggest military spenders in the world were to divert 100% of their funds to building a spaceship that could keep people in space indefinitely..... we could put 28 people in space a year.

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Official US Military Budget***

<KT|Away> I am the Trump of IC

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

I contest the entire premise

1) there is net tons of food we could grow but do not. farmers are even paid not to grow crops in schemes to prop prices up. additionally if there was a food crisis then the vast forests of the united states could mostly be converted to fruit trees. however the only food crisis is in logistics and politics.

2) the planet is 2/3s water. no shortage exists if the will to prevent a shortage exists

3) oil wont run out for a minimum of 300 years, not an immeadiate worry

4) other resources exist in large amounts... except helium... and helium can be made in fission reactors



Nothing requires us enter space.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

9 (edited by Xeno 20-Aug-2013 23:56:46)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Undeath, Einstein,

It's possible, feasible, and as I will argue, necessary for us with our current technology to build thousands, hundreds of thousands of "Ramas" from Authur C Clarke's book Rendezvous with Rama:

"The 20+ crew, led by Commander Bill Norton, enters Rama through triple airlocks, and explores the vast 16-km wide by 50-km long cylindrical world of its interior, but the nature and purpose of the starship and its creators remains enigmatic throughout the book. Inside Rama, the air is discovered to be breathable. The astronauts discover several features, including "cities" (odd blocky shapes that look like buildings, and streets with shallow trenches in them, looking like trolley car tracks) that actually served as factories, a sea that stretches in a band around Rama dubbed the Cylindrical Sea, and seven massive cones at the southern end of Rama - believed to form part of the propulsion system."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendezvous_with_Rama

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Xeno wrote:

It's possible, feasible, ... with our current technology to build thousands, hundreds of thousands of "Ramas" from Authur C Clarke's book Rendezvous with Rama:

*passes the popcorn around*

Oh, this should be interesting!  smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

11 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 06:28:19)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

First, the cylinder itself would necessarily have to be constructed by 3D printers in orbit, essentially satellites launched into space programmed to print layers of portions of the cylinder.  The satellites would print the cylinders with layers of graphene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene

Luckily, the material needed to produce graphene is abundant on Earth or anywhere else.  It is just carbon.  It could even be collected from the atmosphere, which would help stem the tide of global warming.  The carbon would have to be shot into orbit from wherever it is being harvested.  You could use nuclear propulsion - essentially using a cannon that uses a small nuclear explosion to propel the carbon into orbit; the opposite of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46GBjlUOROY

See, instead of using gunpowder to shoot an atomic artillery shell, you'd use a small atomic explosion to shoot carbon (harvested from the atmosphere even) into space.

The carbon would be collected by the satellites which would produce and print the layers of graphene which would form the cylinder.

They'd also 3D print more 3D printing satellites, increasing the rate of production of cylinders exponentially, to keep up, of course, with the exponential rate of human population increase.

I suggest a good spot for launching the carbon necessary into space would be places which are already contaminated by nuclear waste / disasters - Chernobyl, Fukushima, etc.

12 (edited by The Great Eye 21-Aug-2013 02:31:12)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

What you've addressed so far is possibly the easiest part (well, except for the whole "we're going to detonate dozens of nuclear warheads to launch stuff into space" thing, but that includes an insane can of worms being opened up).

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

13 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 02:43:22)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

The Great Eye wrote:

What you've addressed so far is possibly the easiest part (well, except for the whole "we're going to detonate dozens of nuclear warheads to launch stuff into space" thing, but that includes an insane can of worms being opened up).

Not really. They've been working on it for over 50 years:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Or … pulsion%29

The colony ships in all likelihood would be powered by nuclear pulse propulsion.

At this point, we're still talking about how to get all the carbon needed to construct the cylinders into orbit.  Nuclear pulse propulsion would be used to essentially shoot the carbon into orbit.

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

No, I mean that in the grand list of "things which would be needed to build an indefinitely lasting space colony," that's not the most difficult thing to overcome.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

15 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 06:32:51)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

"No, I mean that in the grand list of "things which would be needed to build an indefinitely lasting space colony," that's not the most difficult thing to overcome."

The cylinder would be pretty much as described by Arthur C. Clark in Rendevous with Rama, but with some improvements, for example:

Instead of living on the surface of the cylinder, they'd have apartments or living quarters built in such a way that hover above the surface of the cylinder, because the surface of the cylinder would be used primarily for ecosystem.

This is what it would look like standing on the inside surface of the cylinder:

http://www.yankodesign.com/images/desig … volvo2.jpg

On a clear day, above you would see the curvature of the other side of the cylinder, so, essentially, there would be more ecosystem above you, and more apartments hovering there above you.

There would be a weather systems inside the cylinder,  self-contained ecosystems, within which many generations of human beings could live indefinitely.

The cylinders spin, you see, so there is gravity.   There is also artificial sunlight - an artificial light emitter which which goes back and forth up and then down the center of the cylinder (where there is no gravity) once every 12 hours.

The cylinder can retain all the technology necessary for the people living within the cylinder to extend or even to build another cylinder in the event they can't find a suitable planet before their own population level rises to unsustainable levels.

They can set out with the capacity to live in self-sufficient, self-extendable, self-replicable environments, and, therefore, with the capability of living in space indefinitely. 

Of course, once a sufficiently habitable planet is discovered, they can use the same technology  to terraform and transfer their population to planetary surfaces, if they were to so choose, but, in all likelihood, many human beings would prefer to live in orbit within the cylinders.

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

None of us are questioning whether a writer could conceptualize the idea of a self-sustaining spaceship.

You specifically alleged that this was possible with current technology.  Reading your post... that hasn't been shown at all (aside from the nuclear propulsion system... oh come on, nobody's yelling about this one?!?).

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

17 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 04:06:42)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

It is possible:

"It’s already possible to make everything from guns to food to human body parts. If graphene proves workable as a 3D printable material, we could potentially add computers, solar panels, electronics, even cars and airplanes, [and colonization spaceships] to the list."

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/3d-pri … the-future

"When 3D printers can use graphene, they’ll truly be able to replicate themselves. That’s only the tip of the iceberg though."

http://www.3dprinter.net/3d-printing-wi … t-graphene

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Okay, let's start from the top.

Energy?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

"Hello triple a? I need a new engine and windsheild, ours got holed by micrometeors traveling at .9c. Our location is 500au west, 300au north and 157au up. we are the big colonizer so it wont be hard to miss us."

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

The Great Eye wrote:

Okay, let's start from the top.

Energy?

nuclear fusion / nuclear fission

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Einstein wrote:

"Hello triple a? I need a new engine and windsheild, ours got holed by micrometeors traveling at .9c. Our location is 500au west, 300au north and 157au up. we are the big colonizer so it wont be hard to miss us."

Graphene molecules 'printed' in the appropriate configuration would be able to withstand impact from micrometeors at 0.2 the speed of light which is about how fast the ships would be expected to go with current nuclear pulse propulsion.

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Xeno wrote:
The Great Eye wrote:

Okay, let's start from the top.

Energy?

nuclear fusion / nuclear fission

Since when did uranium become an infinitely accessible resource?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

1. if you can build a self-sustaining biosphere we can do that on earth easier than in space

2.  L5 not planets. Google it

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

24 (edited by Xeno 21-Aug-2013 07:53:46)

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

The Great Eye wrote:
Xeno wrote:
The Great Eye wrote:

Okay, let's start from the top.

Energy?

nuclear fusion / nuclear fission

Since when did uranium become an infinitely accessible resource?

Who says you have to use uranium?  You can use hydrogen.

"High speeds force the reactive mass into a progressively constricted magnetic field, compressing it until thermonuclear fusion occurs."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

Re: Solution to our civilization's problem: colonization of space

Hydrogen fission?  Errr...

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...