Topic: Good or Evil?

Somewhere else a man supposed that our belief that man is either inherently good or evil to dictate our choice in govrnment types.

He went into great detail but I think it best to just ask... is man normally bent to evil but society keeps man in check, or is man good?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Good or Evil?

First thing's first: What are "good" and "evil?

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Re: Good or Evil?

evil = not like flint, good = like flint...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Good or Evil?

Prone to lying, stealing, fighting, killing, rape, and things society in the States considers criminal in nature.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Good or Evil?

Okay, then I'm going to protest this question because there's no such thing as a human with which this is testable.

Determining whether a human is "inherently good" or "inherently evil" is asking whether or not a person, without the influence of outside forces, would independently choose good or evil actions.  However, whether by laws, social stigma, or teachings of morality, those influences are a constant.  Even if you assume someone who's living in the jungle, that person will be shaped by their parental heritages.

So what if we pretended a person didn't have that parental heritage to fall back on?  That person wouldn't survive, and thus you have no test case.  Unlike reptiles, mammals require the link to their parents in order to survive.

In short, this is sort of like asking what's outside the universe.  Even if there's a discussion to be had, it's not one that any of us are educated enough to engage in because the circumstances required for it to be a legitimate thing are beyond observation.

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Re: Good or Evil?

Zarf: I think you find that Flint understands this, he was going to make a political point based on what was answered and bring it back to how his politics is the best type because of whatever... It was very obvious.

It would be interesting to have an actual debate on this, but I am on side with you, possibly even further, there is no good or evil to begin  with, let alone what humans may or may not be inherently.

That said maybe I should take a side opposite to you?

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Good or Evil?

man is good, some of his ideas are evil

I know the difference

if you don'tknow, you should probably do what I tell you

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Good or Evil?

Perhaps I should let the reader decide good and evil....

Are we evil forced to good by laws and society or are we mostly good which is forced to do some evil by laws and society?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Good or Evil?

And fool this is more a poll to see the results, not planning a trap here.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Good or Evil?

society cannot be the definition of good or the Reich would be in business

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Good or Evil?

You_Fool wrote:

Zarf: I think you find that Flint understands this, he was going to make a political point based on what was answered and bring it back to how his politics is the best type because of whatever... It was very obvious.

It would be interesting to have an actual debate on this, but I am on side with you, possibly even further, there is no good or evil to begin  with, let alone what humans may or may not be inherently.

That said maybe I should take a side opposite to you?


Well, a definition for "evil" was provided, and I asked that for a specific purpose.  His definition of "evil" is better understood as behavior which is fundamentally in conflict with most organized societies.

Which in itself should be evidence that at least his definition of "evil" is not something inherently existing (i.e., why would every act which encompasses "evil" also be acts which are inherently harmful to organized society, unless the definition of evil was inherently an endorsement of organized society, something which fundamentally is entirely artificial).

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Good or Evil?

The Great Eye wrote:

Well, a definition for "evil" was provided, and I asked that for a specific purpose.  His definition of "evil" is better understood as behavior which is fundamentally in conflict with most organized societies.

Which in itself should be evidence that at least his definition of "evil" is not something inherently existing (i.e., why would every act which encompasses "evil" also be acts which are inherently harmful to organized society, unless the definition of evil was inherently an endorsement of organized society, something which fundamentally is entirely artificial).


but is organised society artificial? Or should I say, is organised society of humans artificial? Or is it a vital component of what makes us human? In which case it makes sense that "evil" is actions which are harmful to the society, and also why different societies at different times and geographical locations have variation on what constitutes evil.


Einstein wrote:

And fool this is more a poll to see the results, not planning a trap here.

I doubt that you think that is what you are going for, but I will put money on the fact that is where it will end up. Your politics are too closely tied to your being for you to participate in anything but a deeply partisan manner.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

13 (edited by Xeno 19-Aug-2013 07:48:47)

Re: Good or Evil?

There are three perspectives:

1) that there is objective morality / truth (one cannot hold there is objective morality without holding that there is also objective truth).

2) that there is only subjective morality / truth (whatever is good or true to you / society is the only goodness or truth there is).

3) that there is neither objective or subjective morality nor subjective or objective truth, and, rather, only amorality and observation.

Arguments that are often put forth to substantiate or prove one or the other of the above perspectives inevitably result in contradictions, leaving the only rational conclusion that we are unable to reconcile the issue in any definitive manner.  As a result, I see any discussion on the matter as vain - moot points after moot points. 

It is simply not useful to discuss good vs. evil in the traditional sense but rather consider "good for" and "bad for" instead. And so instead of asking "is man normally bent to evil but society keeps man in check, or is man good [but society corrupts him]?" we might find it more useful to rephrase the question and ask:

Are human beings inclined to do that which is 'bad for' them, or are human beings inclined to do that which is good for them?

If human beings are inclined to do that is good for them, how can we account for all the detrimental impacts human beings have had on themselves and the world?

In our complex society, as individuals and as humanity as a whole, are we even capable of determining what is 'good for' us?  How would we define that which is good for us?  Our survival as a species, perhaps? 

One could argue that the survival of the human species might be 'evil', for instance, by arguing that it might be objectively immoral of us to survive if in fact our survival might come at the expense of the extinction of other species. But could they argue that the survival of the human species isn't 'good for' the human species? 

I personally think the basis for a system of 'morality' that all people everywhere might be able to accept would probably be derived by an analysis of what is good for us as a species - what will help us survive and thrive as a species would be 'good', although, because system of morality would be based on our survival regardless of whether or not our survival would be moral or immoral, such a system of morality would be essentially based on an amoral perspective.

im·mor·al
[ih-mawr-uhl, ih-mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.
2.
licentious or lascivious.


mor·al
[mawr-uhl, mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
2.
expressing or conveying truths or counsel as to right conduct, as a speaker or a literary work.
3.
founded on the fundamental principles of right conduct rather than on legalities, enactment, or custom: moral obligations.
4.
capable of conforming to the rules of right conduct: a moral being.
5.
conforming to the rules of right conduct (opposed to immoral ): a moral man.


a·mor·al
[ey-mawr-uhl, a-mawr-, ey-mor-, a-mor-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
not involving questions of right or wrong; without moral quality; neither moral nor immoral.
2.
having no moral standards, restraints, or principles; unaware of or indifferent to questions of right or wrong: a completely amoral person.

14 (edited by The Great Eye 19-Aug-2013 08:32:26)

Re: Good or Evil?

So what you're saying is that "morality" exists, but is essentially a utilitarian calculus?

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The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

15 (edited by Xeno 19-Aug-2013 19:32:47)

Re: Good or Evil?

The Great Eye wrote:

So what you're saying is that "morality" exists, but is essentially a utilitarian calculus?

'Morality' exists, but in many forms as discussed above, resulting in dysfunctional society, the solution for which might be to form a system of morality based on, as you term it, utilitarian calculus, or what is essentially "good for" or "bad for" us as individuals, a civilization, and as a species.

Re: Good or Evil?

*expresses general agreement with xeno's above post*

Okay, time for me to go to the psych ward now!  Clearly this is an indication that something's terribly wrong!

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Good or Evil?

tell me about your parents...

18 (edited by Xeno 23-Aug-2013 07:36:56)

Re: Good or Evil?

The Great Eye wrote:

*expresses general agreement with xeno's above post*

Okay, time for me to go to the psych ward now!  Clearly this is an indication that something's terribly wrong!



No psych ward, psychologist, etc. required; just more Xeno-induced sanity.  wink

Re: Good or Evil?

Simple answer to a simple question: Self interest.

Would you like elaboration?  Of course!

We will start on why we can replace the word evil with self interest.  Why do you do a bad thing? Do you need food, water, and shelter?  Are envy, greed, and jealousy behind the motives?  Did you brain make some strange pleasure associations as a child so you enjoy doing things that disrupt social norms?  Are you caught in a mob mentality state with crowds of people acting under a mix of the above motives?
Same goes with good.  It in some way benefits you, financially, morally, or socially.
I rest my case.

Quack.

Re: Good or Evil?

" is man normally bent to evil but society keeps man in check, or is man good?"

Society is the acceptable rules decided on by man - therefore society is a reflection of man.  If the men are corrupt - so will the society be.  Think of Nazi Germany society that believed that it was in the greater good to kill off other types of people.  Alqaeda has a society too which believes much of the same way, some middle eastern societies believes it is good to jail a rape victim so she doesn't tempt anyone else to commit rape.... does the rule coming from society make it 'good'? 


Biblically speaking, we have the same impulses of animals.  But we have the gifts of compassion, intelligence, morality, justice and law.   

So, to put a finer point on it... "Good" is what you are taught is "Good".  If you are taught that killing yourself for "Allah" is good - then suicide is good.  If you are taught that suicide is bad... well than its bad. 

And a finer point - you have to be taught "good" therefore our default nature must be "not-good".