Re: Barter Bank
Because if you sell it for money you would get, say, $1000.. but if you barter it you get 1000 meat pies! and they are tastier than $$$
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"
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Because if you sell it for money you would get, say, $1000.. but if you barter it you get 1000 meat pies! and they are tastier than $$$
Because if you sell it for money you would get, say, $1000.. but if you barter it you get 1000 meat pies! and they are tastier than $$$
Have you ever eaten a $1 bill that was in a strippers panties?
hence why i know meat pies are tastier....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGK8IC-bGnU
I do find it a little disappointing that neither you, The yell nor myself really pulled him up on the definition he used, though we did attack his concept from that position.
Once he promised MORE and then argued MORE could not be quantified, I somewhat lost interest as the answer to any challenge was bound to be "Barter GOOD".
Although wtf
if you added Farmville Cash and special weapons in Angry Birds for not cashing in your barter credits that week, Xeno would probably be donating his used yachts after the new carpet smell wears off
I wouldn't get a new yacht in the first place, because 20-year-old yachts would have been so well maintained and taken care of or upgraded that they would be essentially rebuilt every year and just as nice if not better than the day they were made; gone would be the notion that anything is disposable, but rather that everything is easily maintained, upgradeable, and to do so increases its VALUE.
Xeno,
you keep citing VALUE.
in true barter system, there is no value to anything.
the is only what you can get someone to trade you for it.
tomorrow I'll get "Starship Troopers" and quote the bit about labor adding nothing to value
Xeno,
you keep citing VALUE.
in true barter system, there is no value to anything.
the is only what you can get someone to trade you for it.
You are going by this definition of the word:
"3.
the worth of something in terms of the amount of other things for which it can be exchanged or in terms of some medium of exchange."
I think there is more to it.
"val·ue
[val-yoo] Show IPA noun, verb, val·ued, val·u·ing.
noun
1.
relative worth, merit, or importance:"
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/value?s=t
That is, there is worth or importance to an item to someone, determined in part by what someone is willing to exchange AND what someone else is willing to accept for it, but primarily the subjective worth or importance of the item to the individual.
I lied! I slept in and didn't go to where I have Starship Troopers
Alright, so do people want me to continue with my portrayal of how barter banking system would work or don't they? With all of these derailments, I think I have completely only to day 2 of 7 of the scenario I intended to present in its entirety.
As I said, the problem with your scenarios is that you presume the Bank is up and running when you ask us to participate in it, and my challenges were to discuss the impossibility, FROM INCEPTION, of granting that first generation of donors either a) real barter value within a reasonable timeframe or b) a growing equity share in the whole system. Neither are workable going forward, so, you will never arrive at your hypothetical GoodWeek where everything works smoothly.
As I said, the problem with your scenarios is that you presume the Bank is up and running when you ask us to participate in it, and my challenges were to discuss the impossibility, FROM INCEPTION, of granting that first generation of donors either a) real barter value within a reasonable timeframe or b) a growing equity share in the whole system. Neither are workable going forward, so, you will never arrive at your hypothetical GoodWeek where everything works smoothly.
Okay, so you would like to see how this would work from day 1 of inception, as in the first day the 'system' is up and running. Your approach is all wrong, the Yell, for you fail to realise that the system is up and running already and has been up and running for thousands of years.
All a barter bank would be is a computer somewhere, a website, or just purely software. Code that people could download onto their mobile phone / computer application.
This application would, firstly, be freely downloadable and open-source, and so the code would necessarily be dynamic, fluid, ever-changing, ever-improving, the idea being that anyone who would be interested in doing so could start their own brand of barter bank, so that there would very quickly be competition, each doing essentially the same thing: presenting information in such a way to facilitate barter exchanges (a.k.a.capitalism).
All economic activity, all capitalism (be it through monetary exchange or otherwise) is barter. Capitalism itself (the exchange of capital of one form for another) has been conducted within a barter system already since the inception of the notion of 'trade'. Since ancient times, the percentage of transactions where money used as barter has grown from 0% to its present frequency of perhaps 70%. That is to say, about 2/3 of all capitalism today involves 'money' or 'currency' as one of the 'items' being bartered for something else. This is a relatively new, rather odd form of exchange, being used in any significant fashion for only maybe 100 years of human history. The vast majority of capitalism over the course of history has not used money at all. And still today, 30% or more of capitalism does not use money at all.
With this in mind, then, all the 'barter banking system' would be is software which would facilitate and make more efficient the capitalism which does not use money. Perhaps it would provide for an increase in the percentage of transactions which do not use money.
There would be different 'brands' of barter banks, whether a 'Barter Bank of America" or "Bill's Barter Credit Union"; each would essentially be the same: a self-directed accounting platform, logistics system, which would facilitate capitalism which does not use money. All that would set them apart would be the different respective styles of user interfaces, and, of course, the respective different levels of perceived trustworthiness of each different brand of barter bank.
So from day one, The Yell, from its 'inception', it would already be providing access to a well-developed, well-established portion of the economy that everyone knows (at least subconsciously) already exists.
Today, a person, say Bob in Alaska and his friend, say Charlie in New York, can have many lengthy conversations with each other over the course of many months arranging to visit each other over the next couple years. Charlie and his family in New York might want to visit Bob and his family in Alaska. While Charlie and his family are away visiting Bob and his family in Alaska, Bob will have to have a house-sitter take care of the pets and plants, etc., make sure the car is locked up safely.
They have a nice visit with Bob and his family in Alaska, see the sights, and then return to New York. A year later, Bob and his family take a trip to New York and stay with Charlie's family, and likewise see the sights, etc... It all took a lot of planning, time, etc., but, nevertheless, the 'exchange' occurred.
Although their respective accommodations were vacant and vehicles, at least neither family had to waste money renting cars, staying in hotels, etc.. It was a mutually beneficial exchange for both parties. The value that they 'exchanged' (and never paid any tax on) might have been 'worth' thousands of dollars of savings.
Now, the day after 'barter banking' app released, Bob and his family decide to give the barter banking system a try, and select an accommodation and vehicle with the perceived equivalent value to the use their vehicle and accommodation in Alaska; they do so without paying any money, and according to their desired time frame. While they are away, their accommodation and vehicle was used by someone else. Not only didn't they need to get a house sitter, but it turned out that the people who accepted the use of Bob's family's home and vehicle offered something in exchange that had a perceived value greater than the perceived value of the accommodation and vehicle that Bob accepted in exchange for the use of his home, and, as such, the Bank profited, lent out those profits for yet more profits, and, as such, provided for the opportunity for the bank to develop REAL assets.
Is this beginning to make sense, Yell?
All that is necessary is for someone to write the code, and for code processing power to be made available.
No, dude, I cannot claim the entire economy of New York City passes through my webstore because they COULD all use it. I am stuck with the few who actually do.
But yell, magic!!! MAGIC!!!!!!!
He had been droning along about "value", comparing the Marxist theory with the orthodox "use" theory. Mr. Dubois had said, "Of course, the Marxis definition of value is useless. All the work one cares to add will not turn a mud pie into an apple tart; it remains a mud pie, value zero. By corollary, unskillful work can easily subtract value; an untalented cook can turn wholesome dough and fresh green apples, valuable already, into an inedible mess, value zero. Conversely, a great chef can fashion of those same materials a confection of greater value than a commonplace apple tart, with no more effort than a cook uses to prepare an ordinary sweet.
"These kitchen illustrations demolish the Marxian theory of value-- the fallacy from which the entire magnificent fraud of communism derives -- and illustrate the truth of the common-sense definition as measured in terms of use."
Dubois had waved his stump at us. "Nevertheless-- wake up back there! -- nevertheless, the disheveled old mystic of Das Kapital, turgid, tortured, confused, and neurotic, unscientific, illogical, this pompous old fraud Karl Marx, nevertheless had a glimmering of a very important truth. If he had possessed an analytical mind, he might have formulated the first adequate definition of value... and this planet might have been saved endless grief.
"Or might not", he added. "You!"
I had sat up with a jerk.
"If you can't listen, perhaps you can tell the class whether 'value' is a relative, or an absolute?"
I had been listening; I just didn't see any reason not to listen with eyes closed and spine relaxed. But his question caught me out; I hadn't read that day's assignment. "An absolute," I answered, guessing.
"Wrong," he said coldly. "'Value' has no meaning other than in relation to living beings. The value of a thing is always relative to a particular person, is completely personal and different in quantity for each living human -- 'market value' is a fiction, merely a rough guess at the average of personal values, all of which must be quantitatively different or trade would be impossible." (I had wondered what Father would have said if he had heard "market value" called a "fiction"-- snort in disgust, probably.)
"This very personal relationship, 'value', has two factors for a human being: first, what can he do with a thing, its use to him...and second, what he must do to get it, its cost to him. There is an old song which asserts 'the best things in life are free'. Not true! Utterly false! This was the tragic fallacy which brought on the decadence and collapse of the democracies of the twentieth century; those noble experiments failed because the people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted...and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears.
"Nothing of value is free. Even the breath of life is purchased at birth only through gasping effort and pain."
Robert A. Heinlein, Starship Troopers
I remembered how that started but not how it ended; I quoted it to be fair.
Maybe your barter bank should be reserved for veterans who have demonstrated their proper moral understanding of value!
/slumps off to count beans for the real citizens
+1 to The Yell for finding that cite with which to defeat The Yell
oh and when you hear the movie sucked compared to the book...now you have a glimmer
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