Re: Barter Bank

Xeno wrote:

Re: "more" and "less" and "fiduciary responsibility".  It seems that, like The Yell, you are attributing a $ amount to what is essentially unquantifiable value, thinking in terms of a monetary paradigm which is simply not compatible with reality.  You seem to think that 'value' can be quantified, when, in fact it can't.  This is the flaw inherent in the monetary system.  Value is unquantifiable.  The route of our troubles with the monetary system is that it attempts to quantify what is essentially unquantifiable, and it is the route of the recent failure of the global financial system.  Value is subjective, personal, a matter of taste, preference, or purpose or utility, a attribution which is different for every person.

I was going to reply, but then I read this...


Xeno wrote:

This brings us back to how the automated system which conducts transactions on behalf of the client: this would NOT put 'the computer' in a fiduciary position, for there would be no objective 'MORE' which the system would be responsible to acquire on behalf of the client.  Rather, the system would simply be arranging the most efficient use of deposited items, which would also happen to garner for the depositor the most possible 'interest' on deposited items, and do so according to the user's stated SUBJECTIVE, PERSONAL taste, preference, or stated purpose or utility.  In other words, the system would not be in a fiduciary position because people wouldn't be expecting MORE or BETTER in the objective sense of these terms, but, rather, simply DIFFERENT or BETTER FOR THEM in the SUBJECTIVE sense.

... and realized You_Fool is right about the "xeno is simply saying 'magic box make everything work.'"  You're not answering my scenario, and not even trying to... so I give up.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

52 (edited by Xeno 22-Jul-2013 19:01:41)

Re: Barter Bank

The Great Eye wrote:

... and realized You_Fool is right about the "xeno is simply saying 'magic box make everything work.'"  You're not answering my scenario, and not even trying to... so I give up.

OMG, people wouldn't have to use the automated system if they didn't WANT to.  And unless I missed a post somewhere, I responded to every point you made that would require a response.

Re: Barter Bank

Einstein wrote:

quit feeding the xenotroll

Not to drag this into more trolling: but at least it is more gratifying than feeding the flint-troll



The Great Eye wrote:

. and realized You_Fool is right about the "xeno is simply saying 'magic box make everything work.'"  You're not answering my scenario, and not even trying to... so I give up.

Also Zarf: Xeno is going even further than "magic box fixes everything" by also assuming that people who interact with this will forget about the current economic system and take a objective loss if the trade fulfills the subjective want. This isn't necessarily a bad model to base a system off, but the fact that Xeno refuses to take into account this difference in quantifiable value means that this is even less of a topic to rationally debate.



Xeno wrote:

Xeno: Speaking of value in terms of quantitative and qualitative terms. I think you have made the gravest mistakes by making the assertion that qualitative value is always preferable to quantitative value of an item. Whilst this is a useful position to take, as peoples desires are a nice way to determine value, ignoring the current quantitative value of a item in the monetary economic system means that you will always run into the issues that The Yell is putting forward, and why your barter system will not be favoured by anyone other than the dim-witted who will think that they will get a house out of the system by putting in an apple, or those who are willing to take advantage of people who think this, or as The Yell said:

The Yell wrote:

a subjective rate of interest is a scam. Always.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

54 (edited by Xeno 22-Jul-2013 19:15:54)

Re: Barter Bank

"The Yell wrote:

    a subjective rate of interest is a scam. Always."

Monetary forms of interest is a scam, for it projects the illusion of there being some sort of objective, quantifiable value of property when in fact there is no such objective, quantifiable value.

The irony is that everyone knows this and yet many refuse to admit it to themselves, in spite of witnessing repeated abuses and manipulations of the monetary system by unethical, unconstitutional, detrimental control of what is supposed to be a free market system, and the ludicrous such 'objective' valuations of property that have resulted.

There is hope, however, because many have come to understand the folly, the error in objective quantification of value by the monetary system and, as you say, You Fool, are starting to simply ignore it.

Re: Barter Bank

Xeno wrote:

"The Yell wrote:

    a subjective rate of interest is a scam. Always."

Monetary forms of interest is a scam, for it projects the illusion of there being some sort of objective, quantifiable value of property when in fact there is no such objective, quantifiable value.

The irony is that everyone knows this and yet many refuse to admit it to themselves, in spite of witnessing repeated abuses and manipulations of the monetary system by unethical, unconstitutional, detrimental control of what is supposed to be a free market system, and the ludicrous such 'objective' valuations of property that have resulted.

There is hope, however, because many have come to understand the folly, the error in objective quantification of value by the monetary system and, as you say, You Fool, are starting to simply ignore it.

Which you "improve" by offering a form of value that has less security, less stability, less liquidity, and less recognition than money.  For your concrete objects Barterbank will promise you that you should expect Fun in greater quantity than you had before you donated your stuff, if you have the right attitude.

Might as well call it a church.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Barter Bank

Re: magical box that does everything

A global barter-based banking / exchange system that facilitates economic activity based on the REAL value of property could be accomplished with a small portion of the computing power necessary to run such governmental surveillance systems as Prism, Tempora, etc..

57 (edited by The Great Eye 23-Jul-2013 17:51:27)

Re: Barter Bank

[Edit: Personal attack]

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Barter Bank

I think this thread may have run it's course... magic box economy where everyone forgets any objective monetary value of things...

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Barter Bank

Well duh a coffee stained copy of Enders Game is equal to a Rolls Royce

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Barter Bank

I am stealing Zarf's thunder, and flip-flopping to defending Xeno's position, but Flint, in the world where money has no meaning then  the two can have equal value in the following scenario: I have inherited a rolls, but do not drive and have no value of cars, thus the Rolls has no value to me. However I have not read Ender's Game, and all my friends (who also do not drive, not know or care about cars) all recommend the book, so I highly desire the book, thus in Xeno's world these two objects do have equal value.

Of course what Xeno is actually advocating means that my Rolls is actually worth many copies of Ender's game, which is tracked by his magic box, so whilst I withdraw 1 copy, I have a credit worth (n-1) books, which I may use to get myself a reading lamp, a reading desk and new glasses, and maybe a small house to keep my new (to me) book.

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

61 (edited by The Yell 24-Jul-2013 13:38:18)

Re: Barter Bank

Einstein wrote:

Well duh a coffee stained copy of Enders Game is equal to a Rolls Royce

You can't enjoy a Rolls Royce in the john

Of course what Xeno is actually advocating means that my Rolls is actually worth many copies of Ender's game, which is tracked by his magic box, so whilst I withdraw 1 copy, I have a credit worth (n-1) books, which I may use to get myself a reading lamp, a reading desk and new glasses, and maybe a small house to keep my new (to me) book.

You're being unduly restrictive, you might want to have some hot apple pies or wait a year for your book-related items to come up.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Barter Bank

I found a screenprint that fell through a wormhole:

"Seven years ago Xeno introduced the WorldBarterBank, which seamlessly values and catalogs real objects all over the world for barter by subscribers.  Everybody cheered, but privately, many of us asked ourselves - "Really? That interface?"

Seven years later WBB is publishing its first real update, and for many it will be too little, too late.

WBB prides itself on low overhead, but clearly it could stand to shunt some values into graphic design.  The site looks like a Web4Tots page.  There are no holographic popups, and there is still no Reading Robot interface -- if you want to hear the website, you have to read it out loud yourself.

One of the basic problems with WBB is that it is no fun.  It is merely an index of items available for barter.  There remains absolutely no way to obtain Crushville Cash for purchases, and realtime on the WBB server does not generate XP for your Orkenfuhrer.  It's as if Barack Obama left the tomb and ordered somebody to put a spreadsheet on the internet.  This site could have been designed in 2013.

If you're the type of droog who loves shopping at warehouses, WBB is for you.  For the other 95% of simian citizens, who value the intangible, nonlinear joy of simulinking our hottime, the mere ordering of freight is a infi downer.  Glag, boys."

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

63 (edited by Xeno 24-Jul-2013 19:10:36)

Re: Barter Bank

It's lunchtime at your local kindergarten classroom.   Billy is sad.  Johnny is sad.  Sarah is sad.  Why?  Because their  parents have packed them food that they don't really want.  Billy doesn't really want his apple.  This week all he has been getting is apples and is sick of them.  sad

Johnny, his mom has been packing bananas all week long and is sick of them.  He doesn't particularly want his banana today.  sad

Sarah is also sad.  Her mom has been packing carrot sticks even though Sarah keeps telling her mom that she doesn't want carrot sticks.  She's sick of them.   But he mom told her, "Don't argue.  You better eat your carrot sticks.  If we don't finish them, they'll go bad." sad

Well, as you can imagine, it so happens that Billy, Johnny, and Sarah eat their lunch together. smile

Now, for adults, it might be complicated for them to figure out how Billy, Johnny, and Sarah are going to sort things out so each of them get what they want.  But for Sarah, its easy.  She gets an idea. smile

Sarah draws a circle on their table with pencil.  And, well, can you guess what happens next?  She says.  "Okay, let's put what we don't want to eat in the circle and trade."

She puts her carrot sticks in the circle.

Well, even though Billy doesn't want carrot sticks, he is interested in seeing what Johnny might put in the circle to trade.  Billy puts his apple in the circle, wondering what he'll get to choose from in exchange.

And, can you guess what Johnny does?  He puts a banana in the circle.

Can you guess what happens next?  Hmmmm?

Billy takes what he wants of the three items: a banana, Johny takes what he wants: carrot sticks, and Sarah takes what she wants: an apple.

They eat lunch, everybody getting what they want.

The next week, they do this every day.  More kids see what they are doing and decide its a good idea.  At, some tables, things don't work out whereby everyone gets what they want.  Sometimes there are arguments.  Eventually the teacher notices.  She gets an idea.  One day, just before breaking for lunch, she says:

"Okay, class, I see that you are using sharing circles to trade lunch items.  That's great.  But it seems sometimes there are arguments because not everyone gets what they want.  Why don't we have a sharing circle for the whole class so that people can have a greater variety of choices.  In this way, people are more likely to get what they really want.  And if you leave extra food that you don't want, people who forgot their lunch can have something to eat.  Let's try it."

Now, this teacher has thought this though.  She has brought some typical food items that the kids usually eat and has put them in the trading circle on a table at the front of the class, so as to increase the chances that everyone will be able to get what they want and lessen the likelihood of there being any arguments. 

What ends up happening is that kids come to the front of the class in a more or less orderly fashion, see what is available for trade and what they might want and then have a chance to decide what they are willing to trade for the item. 

The teacher keeps track of who leaves what and who takes what to make sure no one abuses the system and praises the kids who leave extra food for kids who don't have any.  The kids are good, they learn not to take more than what they want and leave what they don't want for others who might be in need.

Everyone gets what they want and there is always leftover food for kids who had forgotten their lunch, to the point where, some food has been left on the sharing table at the front of the class so long the teacher worries that it might go bad.

So every couple of days, she checks to see what might be going bad and takes it and gives it away to poor kids who whose parents can't afford to send them to school.

Re: Barter Bank

Share my college credits? PFFFFT!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Barter Bank

"So every couple of days, she checks to see what might be going bad and takes it and gives it away to poor kids who whose parents can't afford to send them to school."

Well at least this thread found a use for poor people.

Re: Barter Bank

Einstein wrote:

Share my college credits? PFFFFT!


[obvious post]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Barter Bank

I have a 2007 Peterbilt 357 with 939,000 miles on it, and what is it worth in the barter bank? Why would I commit to the barter bank instead of selling it?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Barter Bank

It is worth exactly what you think it is worth. The idea is you 'deposit' it in the bank and withdraw what you think you want. The bank compares this transaction to all other transactions and determines if you traded even, less or more and associates a credit or debit with your account as required.

Also there is no such thing as objective value, so your question asking how much is it is worth is pointless (and also blatant trolling or not reading before posting).

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Barter Bank

You_Fool wrote:

It is worth exactly what you think it is worth. The idea is you 'deposit' it in the bank and withdraw what you think you want. The bank compares this transaction to all other transactions and determines if you traded even, less or more and associates a credit or debit with your account as required.

Also there is no such thing as objective value, so your question asking how much is it is worth is pointless (and also blatant trolling or not reading before posting).


1: Define "objective value."
2: Compare it with the analysis in your first paragraph, and tell me what the difference between the two is.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Barter Bank

I think You_Fool was being sarcastic

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Barter Bank

Perhaps.  If so, I've obtained a decent record here so far for overreacting to sarcasm.  big_smile

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Barter Bank

Zarf: Sorry for lack of clarity, in this case Xeno has defined objective value as a monetary value, and uses subjective value as what someone will take/give for that object. I do find it a little disappointing that neither you, The yell nor myself really pulled him up on the definition he used, though we did attack his concept from that position.

Or maybe I got Xeno a little wrong, maybe what I was meaning in my first paragraph was that the credit/debit was based on how closely your subjective value matched up with the cloud-sourced subjective value. Which does merge the idea of subjective and objective value; unless you take the closed view of objective value being the dollar value and subjective being your desire (or lack thereof)

On the third hand, I was probably just trolling flint and you should delete the post...


Fourthly The Yell is right...




it's hard to say

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: Barter Bank

Ready for day 2 yet?   If you let me complete the scenario previous things will be clearer.

Re: Barter Bank

Einstein wrote:

I have a 2007 Peterbilt 357 with 939,000 miles on it, and what is it worth in the barter bank? Why would I commit to the barter bank instead of selling it?

In the economic system which results from widespread use of barter exchange systems, the car with loads of miles on it retains value because it is maintained and rebuilt better and more cheaply than replacing an old vehicle with a new vehicle.  So, to answer your question, Einstein, as to why you would prefer to use the barter exchange rather than selling it is because it would be more efficient and thus more competitive and offer you better value.

75 (edited by Einstein 25-Jul-2013 07:04:58)

Re: Barter Bank

You make a claim, now prove it. Prove my semi would be worth more in barter.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)