Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Oh and on that note we are all exhaling hazardous gases according to the EPA, regardless of exit direction. Methane one way, Carbon Dioxide another way.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

27 (edited by V. Kemp 31-Jan-2013 02:57:13)

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Einstein, you have literally no idea how the scientific method works or why it's desirable.

The fact that many foods we commonly eat have small amounts of toxins which harm us if we eat these foods in too large of quantities in no way negates the findings of this study. It's completely unrelated. It's logically unconnected.

The study shows that GM corn has toxins in it which are not in non-GM corn. The study shows the harm these toxins cause rats and suggests the harm they likely cause other mammals. The fact that yes, many fish have relatively high levels of mercury in them (pregnant women shouldn't eat much lest they risk higher chances of autism and other ill effects in their children) has nothing to do with the study, nor does it negate the findings in any way.

Nothing you're saying has any logical connection to the study or its findings in any way. You're confused and you're confusing unrelated topics and unrelated science.

The fact that the FDA allows for X amount of rat droppings in your peanut butter is irrelevant; it doesn't make rat droppings safe. Again, nothing you're saying negates the findings of this study in any way.

Arsenic is a nutrient, by the way (in very small amounts). Apples are still good for you.

I've already won this argument, as far as your confused and unrelated ramblings are concerned. You have no idea what the study found (you made that clear twice). You have no understanding of the scientific method or why your comments in this thread are all unrelated to the study I referenced in the OP.

Civilized people don't drink chlorine; that's what they feed to the livestock, aka you. The wealthy and educated in Amerika have never drank the crap the put in tap water. Fluoride retards children's intellectual development too. It sounds like you grew up real "civilized." tongue

Your appeals to the majority "in civilized lands" are pretty sad. How civilized is the average Amerikan? How much nation debt does he owe? How educated is he? How fat? How strong are his moral values? How staunchly does he defend his rights and those of his offspring? On all of these topics the average person is a failure, yet you rely on the consensus of the majority's apathy to confirm that everything is, in fact, alright. Strange how you don't hold the same position on the national debt or gun rights--on those topics, you seem to think the lazy majority responsible for our current laws is in error. But if they don't care what crap is put in their foods, surely it's safe!





The Yell, people who eat products with lots of corn syrup (and high fructose corn syrup) already exhibit higher cancer rates than people with largely organic, raw-vegetable-filled (and low acid) diets. A slight increase in the corn's contribution to their cancer rates on top of all of their other unhealthy behavior is unlikely to produce statistically significant results. The fact that corn is already often linked to exposure and consumption of other carcinogens makes identifying it specifically as a cause virtually impossible.

Human beings lead far too different lives; variables in humans aren't standardized as with rats in a laboratory. How could GMO corn's contribution be isolated from terrible diets and exposure to the multitude of other factors which influence cancer rates in people? It can't be. GMO corn products are mixed with other cancer-inducing factors like high-fructose-corn-syrup-and-other-chemical-filled food products. Its contribution would just be attributed to the other cancerous food/behavior that comes along with.

In addition, human beings have much longer lives than rats. GMOs haven't even been commercially distributed (so far as we know) for two decades yet. We wouldn't expect such findings nearly as quick as with rats in a lab, even if it wasn't for the factors above (and others) preventing obvious attributions of cancer and organ failure to GMO toxins, even if they are responsible or contributing factors.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

from what I heard, farmers are already being sued for being downwind of GMO crops and using GMO pollen which they say they can't help

so it's out there

and you can't have it both ways.  You can't say a lab result in a different species from humans is so close to what the average human is like, that we ought to assume a link in humans
 
and then say you can't notice the actual spike of cancer rates in real humans because humans are too varied

you assumed a generic human when you compared the mice to "humans"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Genetically Modified food exceeds 2000 years.

Those carrots you eat are GM

That wheat you eat is GM

Oranges... GM

Corn, Cattle, Pigs, Sheep, Horses (they love horse meat in Mexico seems), grapes, bannanas, fish, dog (for you Chinese players), cat (Chinese), bugs (lots of Asian nations), snakes, and even potatoes.

How many different forms of cat, horse, dog exist? Snakes is a good one. There are snakes safe to eat, some where you must avoid the venom sacks and some that are toxic regardless.




Btw your trolling is fail. My city has never implemented floruine in the water, nor the State.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Farmers should be sued for introducing this genetically engineered, toxin-ridden crap into the wild. I don't want food that creates its own pesticides. Any farmer putting this crap out there, resulting in it inadvertently contaminating the organic produce I buy, should be sued out of house and home. Nobody has the right to contaminate my food supply with unnatural plants that produce their own pesticides--toxins that cause cancer and organ failure.

My points on why measuring a correlation between GMOs and cancer isn't as easy in humans as it is in rats seemed to be lost on you.

The similarity between rats and humans is that they're both mammals and what's toxic to one is usually toxic to the other. The similarity is physiology and reactivity to the same toxins.

There is no similarity in lifestyle between rats in a study and free human beings in life. There's no similarity in how easy it is to measure GMO toxins impacting cancer rates. There's no "having it both ways" about this simple and obvious fact. It's easier to measure a correlation in rats in a study where variables are controlled and lifespans are short. For all the reasons I mentioned, it's much more difficult to measure such a correlation in human beings, where GMO food consumption is often linked with other cancer-causing behavior. In humans, the other cancer causing behavior would be [is] attributed the increased cancer rates caused by GMO food.

When a guy who eats tons of processed GMO food filled with corn syrup, who eats tons of filled with "acceptable" levels of pesticides on it, who eats a generally unhealthy and high-acid diet, who drinks the tap water filled with "acceptable" levels of all kinds of toxins gets cancer, what do we attribute the cancer to? All of the crap he does and all the crap he ate. Adding in one more factor, GMO food increasing his exposure to carcinogens, we could never single out this factor in this man (or any man's) life.

Additionally, even if we find that Joe Schmoe is experiencing increased cancer rates, we could find all kinds of other sources of carcinogens to attribute it to. There are all kinds of chemicals in food and behaviors that we already know contribute to cancer rates. He's probably just not minding his health and eating too many of those foods! Or cleaning with the wrong products and breathing too much in!

Any change in rates is sure to be slow and attributed to these multitudes of other factor. In complicated and long human lives, there are all kinds of sources of cancer. Rarely can we identify a single carcinogen through human lives and cancer rates, because we're all exposed to many.

But none of this invalidates the study or makes it any less likely that what these toxins do to rats they don't do to us. It's evidence, and it's not evidence of harmlessness. That it's proof doesn't negate this. That other foods have small amounts of toxins doesn't negate this.

This GMO corn has toxins that other corn does't have. And it harms rats that other corn doesn't.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

31 (edited by V. Kemp 31-Jan-2013 03:58:54)

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Einstein,

Foods genetically modified today are not modified in any way remotely resembling the "modification" of selecting desirable organisms and combining them through their own natural processes of reproduction.

In the context of this discussion, what you stated is a lie. Hell, technically, it's a lie regardless; those organisms merely reproduced via their regular, natural means. If man pollinates a crop as a bee pollinates a flower, that's not "genetically modifying" the organism in any way remotely related to the process discussed in this thread, if at all.

Therefore, you are spamming, completely off-topic, playing word games (without acknowledging that you are doing so), harassing, and trolling.

You're essentially saying that, because farmers picked better crops to use for seed thousands of years ago, genetically modifying plants today to produce their own pesticides is inherently as safe! It's idiotic, it's not an argument or a point, it's confused, and it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

No.... the selective breeding of plants and selective breeding of animals is exactly what this topic is about.

Historicallly mixing plant species to create new breeds happened a lot in an effort to increase yeilds.

Additionally the use of special diets, hormones, and cross breeding with similar species has been used to create vastly different animals. The most well known is the donkey, horse, mule situation.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Again you are having it both ways.

I should be against GMO corn because rats eat GMO corn and have a spike in observed cancers.   Therefore it will cause more cancer in human beings! That's science!

But of course I can't just watch citizens of the United States consume tons of corn and corn-based fructose syrup for a higher rate of cancer.  It's obviously going to be impossible to notice a spike in cancer attributable to GMO! That's science!

Why don't you have some Fritos, and if you colon blows up like Akira, blame it on a thousand other things that you can't even track.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

34 (edited by V. Kemp 31-Jan-2013 06:33:36)

Re: GMO food is safe! Toxicity isn't bad!

Einstein,

"No.... the selective breeding of plants and selective breeding of animals is exactly what this topic is about."

No. The genetic modification this thread is about is not "selective breeding." You are factually incorrect. You have no idea what we're talking about. You're spamming; you clearly have no interest in learning anything about the topic. You don't even know what the topic is.

You think the creation of GMOs today is parallel to the creation of a mule. Enough said. GMOs are organisms created by DNA modified in a way that does not occur naturally. Clearly, you claim, that's the same thing as organisms modified naturally! You're violating logic's law of identity.

I'm sure you'll make an appeal to authority; you're smarter than the laws of logic, so they don't apply to you! Whatever it takes to keep rambling about this topic, which you know absolutely nothing about.



The Yell,

"I should be against GMO corn because rats eat GMO corn and have a spike in observed cancers.   Therefore it will cause more cancer in human beings! That's science!"

You're right. All the tests we do on mice and rats are completely pointless. It's not evidence of anything when something is toxic to a mammal. All animal testing is a huge waste of money, The Yell has discovered. Nevermind statistical correlations between toxins that harm other mammals and toxins that harm humans, there's a slight chance that these toxins which all harm rats don't harm humans at all! Let's cling to that chance and presume it's true. It's not like our lives are at risk. What's a little cancer and organ failure anyway? No big deal!

"But of course I can't just watch citizens of the United States consume tons of corn and corn-based fructose syrup for a higher rate of cancer. "

GMOs were only commercially introduced to the world less than two decades ago. Human beings require time to harm themselves and show cancer, and GMOs just haven't been in most people's food long enough, in large enough quantities, to offer obviously an observable statistical trend.

Rather importantly, which you overlook, we don't have the necessary data. Nobody is filling out a "GMO as % of diet" field in hospital patient information forms. Neither hospitals nor statisticians know which cancer patients ate barely any GMOs (such as the ones in this study) and who stuffed their faces with them daily. The data doesn't exist. It's impossible for anyone to "prove" to you or offer your impossibly high standard of "evidence" of GMO harm to humans because the necessary data isn't collected.

Chemical and healthcare mega industries don't want you to put two and two together and realize that toxins in your food aren't good for you. So they collect no data which can be used to study any/all harm that is/might be happening. And you're satisfied that this is proof of no harm. Of course nothing has been proven in humans; it's not being studied. The necessary data to study it isn't being collected. This is not evidence of no [possibility of] harm, as you keep suggesting.

The people who consume the most of these products already have high cancer rates. Nobody is surprised when they stay high. With such a multitude of carcinogens in modern life, corn as an added carcinogen isn't going to spike national or global cancer rates. That's not rational. You expect some obvious spike in cancer rates which isn't expected, even if the study's findings completely apply to humans. There are too many sources of carcinogens for one to have a major impact on rates. And nobody is collecting the data to identify it.

No massive increase in cancer rates this year? Then, clearly, nothing new is causing cancer! Everything new is safe forever! Science has spoken.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]