26 (edited by V. Kemp 28-Dec-2012 15:11:34)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Stating your opinion isn't a point. tongue You sought to show that atheists do not elevate law, but your example was not the sort of law anyone accused atheists of elevating. If you were being ironic, you were implying you agreed with The Yell that atheists do elevate law to the position of absolute authority in this world. Being ironic, pointing out that atheists do not support sharia would be a clever, humorous way of ducking the issue and pretending you didn't elevate man's laws to sacred authority, but asserting that you accept what The Yell said as true. (because your 'we don't support sharia!' comment was a reference to an obvious and undisputed fact which makes absolutely no case against his statement--which you responded to in no way at any point)

If you were being ironic, you were agreeing with The Yell's statement that "atheist societies make human laws sacred." If you did not intend to do so, you are very confused. In any event, your statement certainly didn't voice disagreement, let alone provide any point to that end.

" but my remark was still specifically targeted at religion not faith."

This thread is about faith. Religion is faith. You can equivocate all you want, but you're not disagreeing with a word I said in doing so.

"This kind of emotion is developed differently amongst people and mostly dependent on DNA. "

Have studies shown evidence of this? Do they discriminate between genetic material predisposed to result more broadly between emotionalism and "spirituality," as you claim here? From your following statements, it appears that you're just referencing the fact that some people are more emotional than others, and you're claiming that evidence has shown significant correlations between emotionalism and certain genes.

So, some people are more emotional than others. Do you have evidence that it is/can be genetic? Do you have evidence that these people are more likely to be religious? Now that'd be an interesting finding/point. If you had any evidence that it's true.

"Many libertarians are atheists. How does that fit in? I'm an atheist and take offense in being put in one large basket with communists. Its a generalization no more. Stats say what you want them to say."

I cited a statistic (I'm sorry I couldn't find better ones quickly at my leisure. I have seen them. I have read about them.). You have cited nothing. I'm confident that I could find more and better sources, had I any reason to. But you have no sources. You have absolutely no basis whatsoever for your claim. In fact, you're even going so far as to pretend that statistics aren't real math and mean nothing because you don't understand them. That's just bizarre.

It's not a generalization, it's a mathematical fact as measured scientifically. Good statistics say the truth about what's measured. I'd find actual statistics, except that you have none at all which dispute my claim and the reference on that page. You've already openly stated that you wouldn't accept even academic and peer-reviewed statistics anyway, so I'm not going to bother looking more. I've seen various surveys correlating religion/party affiliation, and all have shown the faithless leaning heavily toward big-government parties. I've recently seen an academic study correlating faithlessness and big-government ideology, finding a strong positive correlation.

Call it whatever you want; it's the truth, you just don't like it.

Edit: I have no faith in anything, by the way. The notion that I called all atheists communists is ridiculous. I'm not trying to defend any belief as rational or irrational or demonize anyone. But I have a mild interest in this stuff and have read about various surveys and one particular academic study which I found fascinating. If you can't do better than "well I don't like those numbers--in fact, I reject the meaning of all numbers!" you're not disputing anything I've said, just voicing discontent with it.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

27 (edited by Justinian I 28-Dec-2012 16:26:12)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Well, an atheist who was being consistent with empiricism would have to adopt a legal point of view that recognizes the law as having strictly instrumental value. So rather than seeing the law as having sacred status, I think such an atheist would view the law as ideally a kind of social contract that is open for ongoing negotiation.

Speaking of sacredness, why does the political right in the U.S. treat the constitution, a document written by men, as sacred? Isn't it the godless liberals who generally don't view it as sacred?

Re: Faith aint dying soon

we don't treat it as sacred

we just treat your ideas like fart

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Yell,

Haha, okay. So now no one treats laws as sacred?

30 (edited by Little Paul 28-Dec-2012 18:13:56)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

"Stating your opinion isn't a point"
But, oh my goodness, its allowed in an online political forum to state your opinion. That is why I replied "idd." as in "indeed".

"Have studies shown evidence of this?"
There are countless studies. The most famous ones are those on twins. Every study -for or against- in this area so far is disputed unless its kept secret. I'm not going to look it up for you if you're about to waste 5 pages again not understanding what I wrote. In that case I rather say you're right. In capital or with spaces in between for all I care.

"Have studies shown evidence of this?"
There are countless studies. The most famous ones are those on twins. Every study -for or against- in this area so far is disputed unless its kept secret. I'm not going to look it up for you if you're about to waste 5 pages again not understanding what I wrote. In that case I rather say you're right. In capital or with spaces in between for all I care.

"If you can't do better than "well I don't like those numbers--in fact, I reject the meaning of all numbers!" you're not disputing anything I've said, just voicing discontent with it."
true. I tell you why I dispute your conclusions then.
- To start with your reference is a blog citing no references.
- Your numbers, true or not, don't show why they are what they are.
Historical reasons play a large role i.m.o.
- You can only guess ones believes, not know for sure by asking
- The numbers can be artificially adjusted
- etc...

"It's not a generalization, it's a mathematical fact as measured scientifically."
-It can't be measured exactly.
-There is no religiondevice knowing whether or not someone is religious.
-The conclusion you draw is a generalization, not the -flawed and without backup- numbers.
Most criminals are man, not all man are criminals.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

I dunno that nobody treats laws as sacred...I'd buy it if arguments with atheists go like this

Atheist:  That is extremist nonsense condemned by all civilized peoples!
Me:  So what?
Atheist:  Hmmm....oh yeah.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

> The Yell wrote:

> I dunno that nobody treats laws as sacred...I'd buy it if arguments with atheists go like this

Atheist:  That is extremist nonsense condemned by all civilized peoples!
Me:  So what?
Atheist:  Hmmm....oh yeah.>

Are you saying that an atheist can't provide an answer for why they condemn genocide without treating a law as sacred?

33 (edited by The Yell 28-Dec-2012 21:58:33)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Don't ask me to explain if you could or not; lemme have it.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

> The Yell wrote:

> Don't ask me to explain if you could or not; lemme have it.>

You don't have to explain the possibility. I just want you to clarify your position.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Without reference to any immutable human law that was a priori absolutely correct, without regard to cultural choice?  No, they can't.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

faith hill is super hot

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Merry xmas and happy new year dpeng!

Re: Faith aint dying soon

u too!!! big_smile

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Gays! Stop trying to derail the thread. X(

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: Faith aint dying soon

beautiful people like genesis and faith hill make me believe harder in a god.  therefore i have faith X(

So I told the cop, "No YOU'RE driving under the influence... of being a JERK!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFjjO_lhf9c

41 (edited by Justinian I 29-Dec-2012 05:38:23)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

> The Yell wrote:

> Without reference to any immutable human law that was a priori absolutely correct, without regard to cultural choice?  No, they can't.>

Oh ok. Well duh. Although, I don't see what the problem is due instrumentalism and our capacity for empathy.

So the conversation would look like this.

Atheist:  That is extremist nonsense condemned by all civilized peoples!
Me:  So what?
Atheist:  It offends the sentiments of most of us with developed faculties and empathy, and we don't want to live in a society like that>

42 (edited by V. Kemp 29-Dec-2012 06:55:24)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Justinian I,

This thread is about faith rates supposedly increasing, not falling. I pointed out that all the evidence is that faith is falling. That the faithless tend to vote big-government and big-government voting is increasing was a half-joking response I gave. It's just a little statistical evidence which correlates with faithless rates increasing.

I never made any argument that the faithless are inherently big-government supporters via logic or anything like that. It's irrelevant. If I had talked about the topic I would have suggested entirely cultural reasons.

This topic has obviously hit a nerve, but I've said nothing like that all atheists are communists. Or that atheists' thought is inherently communistic. I merely referenced surveys and a study. There's really no cause to renounce all mathematics over it.

"Speaking of sacredness, why does the political right in the U.S. treat the constitution, a document written by men, as sacred?"

We're a nation of laws, not men. The US Constitution is law. It has within it a legal means of changing it. It has nothing to do with "sacred," it has everything to do with "legal." Our Constitution was written primarily to protect the people from government. All of the ways it is being violated are done in order to achieve tyranny and more complete control over US citizens, aka worker bees being taxed at a maximum level.




Little Paul,

"But, oh my goodness, its allowed in an online political forum to state your opinion."

Your opinion has no point nor relevance to the topic. I was asking if you sought to make a point at all. Obviously not.

"There are countless studies. The most famous ones are those on twins. "

Presumably you're referring to studies showing that DNA does not determine all of a person's personality, and that development has a large role. Nature vs nurture. Again, pointless and vague. None of these studies show that emotionalism is genetic, as you claimed. None of these studies show that emotionalism correlates with levels of faith. You're just vaguely referencing generalities, not talking about what's been said here.

Your lack of understanding of statistics is not my problem. I'm done being trolled for now. While I wish I had better numbers to cite, it's a bitch trying to find them in with all the junk that shows up for all search terms I can think of. You haven't shown any evidence to contradict what I've pointed out. Hasn't anyone else seen references to all the exit-polls showing that atheists tend to vote big-government? Nobody remembers that study some months back correlating faithlessness and support of big government? While I'm sorry I don't have these resources to cite, the fact is I've read them and you've read absolutely nothing about the subject because you don't care or know anything about it--yet you're objecting to my references because you don't like them.

As I said, I'd dig deeper and find them. I've seen them. I've read them. I know they exist. But you've already padded against that by discounting all math as meaningless because you do not comprehend it. You've already made it perfectly clear I'd be wasting my time digging up these resources.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

43 (edited by Little Paul 29-Dec-2012 15:07:14)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

"Your opinion has no point nor relevance to the topic."
It couldn't be more appropriate. I claim dna potentially plays an important role in whether someone is religious or not.

"....emotionalism..."
I was talking about a certain emotion, not emotionalism. Yes its important, skip your next 3 posts. I used it as a simplistic term for some kind of brain activity to make my point more clear. Some parts of the brain are activated during eg prayer. They are busy studying it for some time now in the field of Neurosurgery.

"While I wish I had better numbers to cite"
You can't. You can only cite numbers that show the correlation between people who claim themselves to be atheist and claim to want big gov at best, and probably from a disputable source with its own interest and in one area. There is a reason for that. Posting blogs won't do that is quit obvious.

Then still you draw conclusion out of your...you know. Its possible big gov people (as you call them) dislike religion, and not religious people disliking big gov or even people liking big gov cause they are atheist. Thats why I said stats prove whatever you want if you look to the in a simplistic way. Not stating these as facts or opinions, but as possible explanations you can't rule out if those imaginary figures are in a magical way correct.

Even then its disputable if a nazi, communist, monarchist, any of the kind you can come up with (and I dislike tongue) believes in laws to be sacred rather then pragmatic.

"You've already made it perfectly clear I'd be wasting my time digging up these resources."
I just did in this post.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

"It couldn't be more appropriate. I claim dna potentially plays an important role in whether someone is religious or not."

But you have absolutely no evidence of this. So there's nothing to discuss.

I'm sorry that you have no interest in the topic, yet post about it anyway. It's obviously not worth looking for the sources I referenced, because you'll just pompously dismiss them and I'll have wasted a significant amount of time.

I merely mentioned a correlation. I made no claims of causation. I have no desire to try to resolve your difficulty with statistics.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

45 (edited by Little Paul 29-Dec-2012 18:52:17)

Re: Faith aint dying soon

"But you have absolutely no evidence of this. So there's nothing to discuss."
So now you claim its on-topic lacking evidence? Your whole debate about it being off topic is the only off topic thing in this thread with the exception of me answering to this off topic posts.

"I'm sorry that you have no interest in the topic, yet post about it anyway."
Not true, off topic

"It's obviously not worth looking for the sources I referenced, because you'll just pompously dismiss them and I'll have wasted a significant amount of time."
I believe chances are huge you can't come up with any significant numbers because of the reasons I mentioned above. If you feel they are wrong, you can address them point by point.

"I merely mentioned a correlation. I made no claims of causation."
You said:
"The more faithless (atheistic) someone is, the more likely they are to vote Democrat/Socialist/Communist. This is in line with the argument..etc"

"I have no desire to try to resolve your difficulty with statistics."
Maybe you can answer to the points themselves?

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Yes, let me spend the next hour digging through academic journal databases to find statistics for someone who can't discriminate between correlation and causation--someone who has discounted mathematics as hokum in this very thread. That sounds like a sensible way to spend a chunk of my Saturday evening.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Faith aint dying soon

http://www.pewforum.org/Politics-and-Elections/How-the-Faithful-Voted-2012-Preliminary-Exit-Poll-Analysis.aspx

Pew's not reputable, right? I'll go waste more time digging up data on something you don't care about enough to know anything about!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Faith aint dying soon

Again, you said:
"The more faithless (atheistic) someone is, the more likely they are to vote Democrat/Socialist/Communist. This is in line with the argument..etc"
If you don't think atheism itself causes someone to be part of any of these groups, you actually agree with my pov. Else you don't. But you cannot prove it by stating how many people of these groups are atheists.

Even if I assume these polls are not adjusted (and let me do so for arguments sake)
-How many people where asked by pew if they like big gov cause they are atheist? I don't have to look, I know none did.
-These kind of "exit polls" showed Romney stood a chance against Obama before the election.
-People could have lied for various reasons
-Only a small amount of people where asked
They aren't written by God and it isn't science. Its speculation.

Even if people would be asked the question "Are you a fan of big gov because you are atheist?" your answers would be flawed. Because many people don't really know why they are what they are.

Atheism itself doesn't cause people to become communist, or big gov, or hold any laws sacred. A bigger share of communists might be atheist because of many reasons but frankly I don't care.

Re: Faith aint dying soon

"If you don't think atheism itself causes someone to be part of any of these groups, you actually agree with my pov. Else you don't. But you cannot prove it by stating how many people of these groups are atheists."

I referenced a statistical fact. You don't understand what statistics are. Stop taking it out on me. You literally don't know what I'm claiming or talking about.

I made no claims of causality, which you again presume in your most recent post despite the fact that I've already cleared up this same misconception on your part before.

You're either having trouble understanding my simple diction or trolling. In any event, neither deserves further response.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Faith aint dying soon

You said:
"The more faithless (atheistic) someone is, the more likely they are to vote Democrat/Socialist/Communist. This is in line with the argument that atheists raise laws to a higher authority than those of faith;"
So to make it clear: Do you think being atheist causes someone to raise laws to a higher authority than those of faith yes or no? Cause that is how most people would read that sentence. If not, I cannot understand why you even replied to my original reply to yell, except you didn't understand the verbal irony.

If not why bring all those meaningless numbers up in the first place? Are you going to make a point at all?