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Topic: Turning Point in Human Evolution

As any good Pink Floyd fan will tell you the turning point in Human evolution was that we learned to talk, and without a doubt our world would be a very different place had we not learned to talk. Think about it, what use is discovering how to make fire if you cannot explain to others how to do it? But, and this is a big but, should we not go even further back than that? Picture this:

One day there is a monkey, let us call him Og, sitting in a tree with all his monkey friends eating nuts and fruits and berries. It is not a bad existence, nothing to do but eat, sleep and breed, but there is one small problem: Vegetable matter, like fruit or nuts, is very low in energy, so if you live off plants you need to eat a lot of plants, which means you spen almost all of your time eating.
Not exactly good conditions for discovering fire, eh?
So one day Og is up a tree eating nuts when below him he sees a Zebra get killed by a Lion. The Lion then eats the Zebra and goes to sleep. Now Og sees this a lot, animals eating other animals and then going to sleep, and eventually he realises something, so he climbs down the tree, picks up a rock, climbs back up the tree, and waits over a bush.
Eventually a Deer comes along and starts to eat the tasty leaves, and Og lifts the rock high over his head and hurls it down with as much force as his hairy little body can muster, splattering Deer brain all over the bush. Quickly Og climbs down and begins to eat the dead Deer.
When he's finished Og realises that, for the first time in his life, he's not hungry.
Og now has spare time.

And there you have it, the turning point in Human evolution: We learned to kill. Without that ability, without the spare time it gave use, we would not have the time to learn to talk, or discover fire.


Any thoughts?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Without the ability to communicate we wouldn't be able to cooperate or form complex societies.

Yes we would all be doomed without the ability to talk.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

what good does learning how to make fire do if you can't send the information across the world wide web to your cousins in other parts of the Earth????

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

but seriously though. i think that the thing that made humans dominant over animals is that we had the ability to think beyond a limit. i know that the early humans didnt think as much as we do but they stil thougt. they thought about how to make life better. also, it doesnt take as much time to eat vegetables like you say. and after a human has found a bush of beries, he can start thinking about other things while he is eating. that made humans dominant

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

The turning piont in evolution was when our brains had developed the ability to think with reason. Og whould have never thought to kill he didn't have the ability to learn. As we can stem back further and further, we can keep going with dispute.  but another turning piont may be when the australopithecines develop the ability to mate for pleasure, giving more growth in population giving prehistoric humans the extra manpower to hunt acurately enough to secure better survival

Perhaps the turning piont didn't even happen yet. wink

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Red Rooster: "it doesnt take as much time to eat vegetables like you say."

It is simple biology: Herbivores eat all day, carnivores do not. This is not because it takes a long time to eat an apple, but because it takes a lot of Apples to get, for example, 3000 calories, yet it does not take much meat.


Ehawk: "The turning piont in evolution was when our brains had developed the ability to think with reason."

Most animals are capable of reasoning. Take the humble dog: "When i shat on the carpet i got a good kicking, when I shat outside I didn't, therefore I must only shit outside".
Reasoning was not a turning point.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Errr...except subsiting wholly on meat would be unhealthy tongue Fruits and vegetables are needed for vitamins, minerals and nutrients. =P A balanced diet was and still is best smile Why does it have to be either/or? tongue

@Fokker

You dog example doesn't really entail any reasoning.

To serve is to survive

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

animals may have reasoning skills but not on the level of humans, humans have the ability to see the results and plan.

although wolves can coordinate to make a kill, humans can coordinate to build pyramids and elaborate abodes by planning.  also since our ability to walk upright, we, at one point, separated ourselves from the animal kingdom and formed a civilization using reason as a weopon to make tools and develop politics.

as for my other theory, sex.  the smartest, strongest and most desirable were able to pass on thier genes.  instead of the animal kingdom witch is based on survival more than cunning.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Ehawk,

Then why is the mass of human kind inherently stupid?

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

how do we know there was a turning point in human evolution anyway?  tongue  last i heard evolution was a sloww process..and 1 day people did not suddenly have the ability to talk or stand on 2 feet, but it gradually happened over time. tongue

but i do think you have something about our ability of reasoning, although that didnt happen suddenly either tongue

shadowstorm

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

and if there are dumb humans its from bad genes tongue

shadowstorm

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

and marijuana...

shadowstorm

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13 Reply by ☭ Fokker (edited by ☭ Fokker 08-Mar-2008 04:59:26)

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

> Theodora wrote:

> @Fokker

You dog example doesn't really entail any reasoning.

The dog reasons that if it craps in the house it will get a good kicking from an animal ten times it's size. Maybe our understanding of the word Reason differs?

> The big man wrote:

> and marijuana...

The Incas and the Aztecs didn't strike me as particularly stupid. Or the Hasasine for that matter. tongue

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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  • East
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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

it's not possible to give one turning point, it is a mixture of fortunate circumstances; for example I haven't seen anyone mention opposable thumbs here as the key moment in human evolution

yet without these we would be severely handicapped in manipulating our environment; why just look at kittykats, kittykats are very jealous of our opposable thums as they can see us opening cans of food and doors to fancy places which they can't emulate and it makes them very sad

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

You make a lot of sence east. Stop it. You are at the IC politics forum remember? tongue

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

I would argue that domestication was the turning point in human history.

For 7 million years humans existed as hunter - gatherers with no real progress, until around 11,000 years ago domestication of first plants and then animals evolved.

less than 0.1% of biomass per acre privided edible calories for hunter gatherers, when humans learned to select and grow the few species of plant that we can eat, that changed to close to 90%.

As a result, one acre can feed many more herders and farmers than hunter gatherers.

That was the turning point allowing large societies to develop.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

@Fokker

No, all your example does is demonstrate behavioural modification via conditioning. That's not the same as reasoning. You're trying to anthropomorphize the dog and attribute reasoned thoughts to it. It doesn't work.

Bacteria respond to their environment as well, and the conditions within it. I would hardly call what they do reasoning.


To Reason, as it was meant in the original context is:

- to think or argue in a logical manner.
- to form conclusions, judgments, or inferences from facts or premises.


If you can find an animal that can think in the abstract (besides humans), you may be able to formulate a better argument using them.

To serve is to survive

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18 Reply by ☭ Fokker (edited by Theodora 12-Mar-2008 01:17:52)

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Theodora, why didn't you just say my analogy was a bad one? Or do you genuinely believe that only humans are capable of reasoning?
Or is it that you have confused basic and higher reasoning?

@fokker

I did...a number of times tongue


My personal beliefs are hardly relevant since I'm a neutral party in this discussion. I was simply telling you your reasoning was  flawed tongue

I have confused nothing. But perhaps you have confused what the OP was talking about smile

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Dolphins can reason. not to the ability of humans but they can reason better than chimps

i think we can alll agree that if there was a "turning point" reasoning played a large role.  now lets put "reasoning" on a scale! while human are 100% reasoning and bacteria is at 0%, the dog may be at 50% then we can place the dolphin at 80%.

Now lets travel to the "imaginary" planet somwhere in our great galaxy.  Assuming that there is intelligent life out there on the level of humans, they must posess a few characteristics:

1. Ability to reason.
2. Communication.
3. Hands will have the ability to make tools
4. Omnivors
5. Sex for plasure
6. Animal Husbandry
7. Religion or an idea of God
8. Politics
9. Ability to dream(not sleeping, but in the sense of dreaming of better life i.e: "American dream"
10. Walking upright may cause dignity in the sense of civilized nature(not proven but something to think about)

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

> Ehawk wrote:

> Dolphins can reason. not to the ability of humans but they can reason better than chimps

i think we can alll agree that if there was a "turning point" reasoning played a large role.  now lets put "reasoning" on a scale! while human are 100% reasoning and bacteria is at 0%, the dog may be at 50% then we can place the dolphin at 80%.

<At this point you swing wildly off topic. Perhaps you would like to start your own thread?>

Now lets travel to the "imaginary" planet somwhere in our great galaxy.  Assuming that there is intelligent life out there on the level of humans, they must posess a few characteristics:

1. Ability to reason.
2. Communication.
3. Hands will have the ability to make tools
4. Omnivors
5. Sex for plasure
6. Animal Husbandry
7. Religion or an idea of God
8. Politics
9. Ability to dream(not sleeping, but in the sense of dreaming of better life i.e: "American dream"
10. Walking upright may cause dignity in the sense of civilized nature(not proven but something to think about)

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

what do you mean "off topic" i thought we are discussing human evolution and the key point of our eventual dominance.

also i would like someone else to comment on what i wrote and get a second opinion.  i think that list of ten evolved skill are somewhat universal in all sentiant life.

i what also like to add that i am taking a coarse in college similar to this discussion and i promted my archaeology professor yesterday and he agrees with my list and the level of reasoning among animals in comparison to humans.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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22 Reply by Black_Wing (edited by Black_Wing 08-Mar-2008 20:56:45)

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

Look At My Balls !!!

Look !!!!!!



ROFLMAO....you sick bastard.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

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23 Reply by &#9773; Fokker (edited by &#9773; Fokker 08-Mar-2008 21:17:07)

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

> Black_Wing wrote:

> Look At My Balls !!!

Look !!!!!!



ROFLMAO....you sick bastard.


WINNAR! I've had that thing in my sig for a week now, you're the first person to notice. big_smile
_______________________________________________________________________________

"what do you mean "off topic" i thought we are discussing human evolution and the key point of our eventual dominance."

We are, what I was referring to by saying "off topic" was the part about aliens needing to have certain characteristsics in order to be classed as intelligent. This is off the topic of what was the turning point in human evolution.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

oh, i thought it would be a good way to summarize the evolutionary traits of humans by assuming the all sentient life will universally have the same cercumstances to become dominant.

every reason all of us gave that may be a turning point is very good.  i think that no life universally can become sentient with out those characteristic, especially communication.

I dont smoke cigarettes because i like them.  I smoke because it hides the smell of marijuana thats seeping into the hallway atm.

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Re: Turning Point in Human Evolution

> Ehawk wrote:

> oh, i thought it would be a good way to summarize the evolutionary traits of humans by assuming the all sentient life will universally have the same cercumstances to become dominant.

every reason all of us gave that may be a turning point is very good.  i think that no life universally can become sentient with out those characteristic, especially communication.

I would like to ask a few questions regarding this, specifically the list. Could you open a thread, pleebs?

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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