I'm still trying to figure out how the full time employees are going to afford a $300 premium and $1500 deductible on a minimum wage income. But hey, at least they have insurance!

$300 premium with $1,500 is best case. Most crap insurance plans are higher unless there is employer contribution, which in these cases, is highly unlikely.

The "Affordable Care Act" starts by repeatedly taxing desirable healthcare and medical devices. Then it forces people to pay for the costs incurred by the irresponsible behavior of others.

Both increase costs. The expectation that costs will fall purely because more people are forced to buy healthcare or pay a penalty has no basis beyond hopeful ideology.

Over 5 million full time jobs are being converted to part time jobs.

Another 1 million jobs that could have been made won't.

And they think 4 more years of Obama will fix things. Lol

The only way not to intentionally sabotage our healthcare/insurance industry (more than our government already did) was to overturn Roe v. Wade? I want some of what you're smoking.

Romney used to be pro-abortion. He could care less about abortion; he just cared about getting elected.

I agree that we shouldn't try to stop everyone from killing their kids. Some people insist on using violence to avoid the consequences of their actions, and many will do it whether it's legal or not.

Seeing as Romney could obviously care less about abortion, the only "risk" would be that Republicans would push anti-abortion legislation and he'd have to go along with it. Pretty impossible, especially with a Democrat-controlled senate. Putting the freedom to kill your kids ahead of economic freedom is a bizarre prioritization, since the freedom to kill your kids isn't at risk.

Cue the boxcars!

Getting off topic.

Back to my conversation!

All hail Papa John's and Applebee's!

> dfsf wrote:

> Stop believing Republican propaganda that Obamacare will cause chaos in the job market. <<

What Republican propaganda?  The only Republican propaganda on the subject I can recall was "Mitt Romney never supported a federal program like Obamacare, Romneycare was a state system" (lie btw, his July 2009 op ed in USA Today urged Obama to drop single payer and create a federal exchange program like Massachusetts did)

Why are people boycotting Applebees, Papa John's and Olive Garden?  IS that GOP agitprop?

>>It's not the first time that a mandate has been put into law in the U.S, just the first time it's been as a country mandate. <<

If I were bent over a table and raped, it wouldn't be the first male rape in US history.  Wouldn't mean I'd look forward to it.

>>Hawaii has had a state healthcare mandate since the 70's, Massachusetts since like 2007 put in place by Romney, and 2-3 years ago the city of San Francisco even imposed it's own healthcare mandate on businesses and employees.  Hawaii's being more lenient but still a mandate.<<

And that's why there's flocks of cars, loaded up with furniture, their dogs on top like Mitt Romney, rolling into the golden oasis of boomtown SF and Boston.   Oh wait.  Those places suck.

>>In all cases once the dust settled, it came with positive opinions from the general public<<

Those that hadn't bailed out, you mean

>>and very little negative effect on businesses or employees.<<

Don't tell me the formula you used to take the Great Recession plunge in employment and commercial tenancy and business tax income for those areas, and factored out the sliver that was due to healthcare mandates, and gave the appropriate blame for the remainder on the overall economy.  Don't tell it to me.  Sell it.  That's where that Moneyball guy blew it.

>>The business mandate is actually going to help stabilize the private insurance market during this transition<<

Stabilize during the transition??  As opposed to wild fluctuations of stagnation?

The USS Arizona was stabilized by the Empire of Japan 60 years ago, and stayed stable.

>>and keep many people employed who would not be without the provision.<<

I trust we will see many averted hypotheticals cited to defend this President.  "It WOULD HAVE BEEN AWFUL!"

>>It's just like the other aspect that republican's try to feed people about how hospital's and medical practices are going to lose so much money because they will be restricted a little on their charging of patients and all these jobs will be lost etc....They don't want to throw out the other side of it about all the money these hospitals lose out currently to people who default on those medical bills and never pay a dime for emergency care which is required to see you.<<

Actually they'll still have to do that ER work, only now they'll have more paperwork per person too.  That costs manhours.  Manhours cost money.
More work for the SAME income = business losses.

>> You'll now see a drop in that and more of people who would do that if they got sick and couldn't afford it <<

Who told you that?  They're not getting more doctors, so to get a scheduled appointment will be a bigger pain in the ass than it is now.  Why not go to the ER?  They still have to see you that same day.  You got all day. You're sick.

>>who will be covered and able to get a lower cost plan through the Obamacare plan<<

the average healthcare plan cost is $2500 higher  NOW since ACA passed.  By mandating that women buy prostate coverage and men buy neonatal care coverage in the same basic plan, Obamacare prevents smart shopping for cheaper coverage.  Nobody in your state can compete with the exchange.  Paying cash won't be cheaper.  As with all government monopoly, it stifles innovation and economy as a threat to authority.

>> and in the end balance out to where you'll see very little change in how business is able to be run in the healthcare industry.<<

Not only is that not true, there will be and are now growing huge changes in how every other business runs in all industries.

The primary cause of the rapidly increasing cost of care for decades has been government policy & meddling. Consumers don't pay for healthcare the way they pay for most things they consume. In any other sector of the economy, advances result in lower costs.

In 1943 the IRS ruled that employers could pay health-insurance premiums w/pre-tax dollars. Americans, whether privately or publicly insured, tend to be over-insured and generally unaware of the real prices of the services they use. Because so little is payed for out-of-pocket, Americans tend to have little awareness and little incentive to make intelligent decisions regarding their healthcare. Health insurance is so expensive because, to the over-insured, actual services are seemingly so cheap.

Couple this with Americans having the most advanced healthcare in the history of the world, and prices rise steadily. The Affordable Care Act only makes this problem worse, in mandating what levels of care are required to avoid the tax. I'm quite positive I won't need contraception, but I'll be paying for it. I'm quite positive I'll never need STD medication, but I'll be paying for it. Obamacare is filled with policy that makes the problem with our healthcare costs worse, not better.

It's easy to say "prices were already rising! This legislation is innocent!" w/o understanding the problems which were already raising prices--problems Obamacare makes worse, not better.

New/higher taxes: The Flexible Spending Account contributions [pre-tax] cap. The itemized-deduction cap for medical expenses. The removal of the ability to pay for OTC medicine with a pre-tax flexible spending account. The 2.3% excise tax on all medical devices. And the 40% tax on the best insurance (starting in 2018). Isn't the goal for everyone to have the best medical insurance possible? How does a 40% tax on that insurance help anyone get it? How do all of these new taxes make healthcare more affordable?

Obamacare adds to the problems which are [and have been] raising our healthcare costs dramatically. Dictating what coverage people must purchase only adds to the problems resulting from the over-insured overusing our healthcare system today, and that's one thing Obamacare does to a ridiculous extent. All of the taxes contribute more to increasing costs, on top of this.

While Obamacare is obviously not the sole cause of skyrocketing healthcare costs (since that started long before it was passed), the notion that it will reduce the cost of health insurance is laughable. The only thing it does to this end is require people to purchase insurance; but the penalties for not doing so start very small (much less than insurance), and the coverage it requires is the bloated sort which has been inflating health insurance costs for decades.

Many other nations, saddled with oppressive government, have also avoided addressing the real problems with healthcare costs in recent decades. The inevitable result? Rationed care.

dfsf,

How will it "stabilize" the market? And how will it save which jobs? The problem with insurance isn't that it's unstable, its that its costs consistently rise very much. What are you talking about?

"You'll now see a drop in that and more of people who would do that if they got sick and couldn't afford it who will be covered and able to get a lower cost plan through the Obamacare plan and in the end balance out to where you'll see very little change in how business is able to be run in the healthcare industry."

The notion that anything will "balance out" is purely hopeful conjecture based on the fact that more people will be paying into the system, with absolutely no regard or accounting for everything I've discussed above.

Please stop believing propaganda until you have enough knowledge of the topic to address anything I've said above. Preferably everything.

> dfsf wrote:

> Chris, write your response in a way that is less annoying to read and then I'll waste my time reading your full post.  Just from a quick look through though, your response to my quote of " You'll now see a drop in that and more of people who would do that if they got sick and couldn't afford it" isn't about the subject of the quote as I was referring to those who just go to the ER and default on ever paying the bills because you'll now have some of those people covered with insurance plans.<<

They go to ER for the convenience of a sameday appointment and guaranteed access.
They will continue to prefer that convenience to the hassle of waiting for an appointment in a week or two, and filling out all kinds of forms so the insurance can pay the doctor.  One dose of that, and it's back to the ER.

You can't refuse to see people at the ER.
You can't put a boot on their car til they pay you.
The problem is not solved by insurance.

>>And for your claims about the average healthcare plan, I disagree.  In general most plans have gone down drastically as insurance companies start to reveal their Obamacare complying plans.  Not everything is in place yet but the few company's that I have seen so far try to get a headstart are much more affordable for those who have any issues that would have increased their premium.   Once everything is in place, I think you'll see the costs go down for most people.<<

1. No. Average costs for healthcare plans have gone up about $2500 a year.

2.  Again the weaselly hypothetical evaded catastrophe.  If you HADNT had Obamacare, let's pretend your premiums would have SOARED! See, from that standpoint of hypothetical armageddon, $2500 a year is PEANUTS!  If we imagine it wouldnt, or, just hold off for proof, then, we're not excited.

3.  All of those plans will cease to exist in 2014.  The mandatory minimum coverage plan hasn't yet been finalized.  It is unisex.  It covers kids and the elderly.  Since nobody buys universal coverage options, nobody's plan will qualify as THE gold standard plan.  Which means nobody's current plan will be allowed to be sold.  Everybody is going to have to switch to some other plan.  Obama himself has said, if you switch coverage you may well pay higher premiums.  Ergo...