Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

I think the tendency for development of this game is to give the OPTION for players to automate many (if not virtually all) processes of the day to day operation of their empire(s).

The reason is simply that most people who would play this game would not want to or can afford to spend more than maybe 1 or 2 hours a day logged in to conduct their affairs.

The bottom line is that if semi-active players / or even inactive players could put processes on on automated control, they could have a more thriving empire and have a chance to do well in the round in spite of their inactivity.

IC I don't think can ever attract players because most players will be semi-active /inactive.  When players realise that in order to be successful, they have to log in ultiple times a day and diligently and methodically conduct often mundane data-like entry processes and keep records and take care of of multiple items of concern, they get stressed out, or even bored, and eventually simply lose interest.

Consider these two scenarios:

Scenario #1 (as it is without automation):

Mr. Noob logs in to his empire when he wakes up.  He is dismayed to learn he has to clear about 30 planets that were attacked, and do retakes on about 15 others.  He first has to sift through the records where he methodically keeps to find out how many lasers there were on the planets that had been taken.  Yes.  He spends the time and effort to record on each planet he has taken over the cource of the round how many lasers there were when he took it, so he doesn't have to waste ops on more PIs on silly retakes. He also keeps records on all of his planets, recording how many lasers he had built on each so he knows how many bombers to send to retake any of his planets that might have been taken.  After sifting through his records, then, then sends fleets out to the 45 planets.  Time it takes him to do this 45 minutes.

Next, Mr. Noob sees his fam's fambank has send him some GC and res, etc.  So now he gets his calculator out to see how much of that GC and res he can spend on building more fleet.  He goes through his planet list to see if there is any infra he should build as well.  He decides he can and probably should build some infra on about 30 of his planets, so he goes about 25 minutes.

Next, Mr. Noob wants to make use of his ops, so he goes about reading through his records of infils to find target planets' portals he wants to try and sab. Next, he's got to update his records with his sabbed planets to remind him to send fleets to those planets when portals are down.   Time taken: another 25 minutes.

Mr. Noob has some expos he needs to send, and so he has to spend another 15 minutes finding planets and sending them out.

By now, of course, he's been busy managing his empire for nearly two full ticks.  His fam has gotten attacked, and so he has to check his records again and send fleets out. another 10 minutes.

He gets a message from a fam member asking for some GC.  Now he gets out his calculator and goes about calculating how much GC he can spare without losing fleet by the time he HOPES he'll get aided.  Time taken, aother 5 minutes.

He'd like to do more, but, by now, he has to go to work.  Did he eat breakfast?  Nope.  Too busy.

On the subway, he logs into his empire to see if everything is okay aid in res (because he forgot to do so earlier).

He gets to work, and every hour he sneaks a quick log-in to manage things (some of hios fleets arrived at their destination) and so he has to drop them and recall stationed forces, and notices other planets have been attacked and has to launch more fleets.  He also has to pass  planets to fam members, so he has to spam fam members with in-game messages to take his planets.  Over the course of his work day he logs in to send res again.  Build some infra, recall fleets from where his portals had finished building, etc., etc., etc., etc.  Total time taken during work day 1 hour 25 minutes.

When he gets home, he logs in to send more fleets out, build a little infra, do more ops, explore, and spam fam to take planets.  Suddenly, fam has elected him fam leader.  He goes into fam forum to see what's happened.  Reads up, on fam forum.  Deals with in-game messages from other fam members, allies, etc..  He has to thinks about what the fam plan should be, etc., etc.  more time taken:  1 hour 25 minutes. 

And as the war his fam is having does do well, he's getting, frustrated, stressed-out, and unhappy as the round goes on, because in spite of all his dilligence and effort, many of his fam members aren't pulling their weight, aren't as active, aren't as willing or as able to spend as much time to be be dilligent enough to win the war.  And decides he just can't take it any more and deletes, and forgets IC, never returns.

Scenario # 2

Virtually all of the functions of the daily processes of his empire and his fam members' empires CAN be selectively automated according to each player's preference.  All players can be productive and can contribute to the fam, then, in spite of not being very active.  In fact, because players choose to automate many of th emundane processes of the functioning of their empire, they can spend more time strategizing, discussing, planning, coordinating activities, which has transformed the game.  Now, players are more creative in wars, they have time to conduct and manage wars effectively and players have learned that by conducting wars more effectively fams can actually profit by wars rather than usually just destroying each other.  Thus, there are more wars, and, overall the game is more fun.

So Mr. Noob logs in in the morning, and sees that while he was sleeping, his empire had been attacked and had lost 30 planets, but also sees that 23 of these have already been retaken by the game automatically because they were all within 4 ticks of his closest portal.  Mr. Noob had set it up in "empire settings" for the game to launch retake fleets of 1.3% of main fleet's figs and 0.2% (minimum 2 ground) of main fleet's ground wth a preset ratio of 1 to 0.02 ground:transports and for suficient # of bombers to be sent according to latest intel.  The game would send the appropriate number of bombers simply by having recorded the number of lasers there were on the planet when it had been occupied by the player.  The game also automatically adjusts its intel about how many lasers there are on planets according latest intelligence reports by automatic ops conducted not only by the player's empire but also by fam and allies members.  This and other intel is collectively 'known' by the game automatically, and is displayed in "fam news" (which is a heck of a lot more complex than it is now, but I'll get into it later) and on the map (which is 3D galactic map BTW).  The info displayed is displayed so that players and the game know how old it is, and thus a reliability rating of the intel is also shown.  The point is, that while Mr. Noob was sleeping, his empire automatically sent fleets with appropriate # of bombers for each planet based on what had been 100% reliable intel on number of lasers on each planet.  7 of the planets, however, were more than 4 ticks away thus the game reliability rating of the itel on the number of lasers on those planets FOR THE TICK DURING WHICH THE FLEET WOULD ARRIVE would be less than 100%.  Therefore, the game never sent retake fleets to those planets.  Mr. Noob could have set it so the game would have sent fleets with the stipulation to hover until reliability rating on the intel as to the # of lasers to rise to 100% or until automatic DU ops diminished the # of lasers to the point where the fleets could have taken the planets, but had chosen not to do so, maybe because Mr. Noob dodn't think those planets were worth the ops / fleet / morale needed to keep retaking them.  Mr. Noob also set it so thart 30% of retake fleet forces on planets which were retaken would remain stationed (it is a given that transports and bombers are automatically recalled).

The effect is that when Mr. Noob wakes up and logs in to his empire, he does so to simply make sure that everything is okay, and maybe to adjust some presets for the automation by which his empire functions.  He elects to change the size of fleets to be sent automatically to planets determined to be unportalled by intel reports.  Because aiding into fam bank is also set to automatic, because building infra is automatic, because building fleet is automatic, because virtually everything is automatic, he logs in update himself on the going-ons of the empire and the fam, to discuss with fam members how he should adjust his presents to suit fam changing objectives - takes him  20 minute, which he really appreciates, because that's all the time he has in the morning before going to his job, a job he won't get fired from for logging into IC during work hours.
------------------------------



The development of automation, is a necessary development.  Not only will it allow for an AI against which all players of all fams might for one round work together against to defeat, but it also lays the foundation for the expansion of this game into intergalactic wars.  Due to automation, players would have able to manage multiple empires in many galaxies simultaneously, and intergalactic "faction wars", which, ultimately, I think is where this game is heading.

Developers, please think about this?

2

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

tagpoint to killas for reading it  (I have no balls for it tongue)


edit: can u do me a summary=?

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

Summary:

No more playing the game, just doing setup and logging in every other day because game did everything for you.

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> Roast Beef Sammich wrote:

> Summary:

No more playing the game, just doing setup and logging in every other day because game did everything for you.


The way the game is set up so that the data entry, recording-keeping account-minded person likes and is successful at this game, rather than those the inter-personal, analytical strategist.  It is an inefficient use of players' time for those who actually want to plan, strategize and be efficient.  This game has to be changed to so as to appeal to players of different personality types provide an equal chance to be successful to various types of players if this game is ever going to appeal to wider community of players.

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

Inter-personal analytical strategist isn't successful? I guess you havent heard of a player named Noir...

Modestus Experitus

Arby: A very strict mod, reminds me of a fat redneck who drives a truck around all day with a beer in one hand. I hated this guy at the start, however, I played a round in PW with him where he went as an anonymous player. Our fam got smashed up and everyone pretty much left. Arby stayed around and helped out the remaining family. At the end of the round he revealed himself.... My views on him have changed since. Your a good guy.....

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

or Poley!

"I lie down next to an angel, fall asleep and fly with the demons"
I once prayed to god for some planets, but quickly found out he didnt work that way

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

No, definitely not Poley.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

The way the game is set up wastes mass amounts of time forcing them to do mundane, repetitive tasks first, and then they don't have time to do the strategist.  Provide players to option to let automation conduct the repetitive tasks, even to the extent their empire can run on 'auto-pilot' sort-to-speak, so they can devote the little time they do have to actual analysis, strategy, etc.

As it is, it isn't feasible to wage effective campaign without devoting way too much time to it, simply to eal with the repetitive tasks ivolved with retakes, exploring, infra-whoring, etc.. - processes (and more) which players should have the OPTION to automate to free them to conduct higher-level affairs.  By all means, though, if people want to continue doing the data-entry and recording keeping necessary to wage an effective campaign, they can go right ahead.  The point is, there should be the option.  We should be giving players more options instead of fewer.   There is nothing wrong with giving players the option to automate certain aspects of the process, as THEY see fit.

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

I think the intent here is good. Make it more balanced for ppl who don't have all day to spend on IC. But using automation to do it I dont agree with. It would make the game boring. Also it probably requires a bigger development resource pool than we have or will get anytime soon.

I think a better way to go about it would be to tweak the game design so that the number of repititive mundane tasks required for successful management of empires is reduced rather than being automated.

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> Jaguar wrote:

> I think a better way to go about it would be to tweak the game design so that the number of repititive mundane tasks required for successful management of empires is reduced rather than being automated.

Yes, this is a good start, for instance, a priority should be a system whereby intel is shared automatically among fam members, so that the number of last known lasers, where there are portals, whether or not a fam members sabbed them and when, fleet movements of fam members and opped  enemy members if known by infils, etas including hovering fleets - all this and MORE needs to be displayed on map system view, but hovering mouse over each planet, much of the info displayed AROMATICALLY from battle reports, fam news, and when a fam member or ally has done an infil.

Developing AI would be a natural progression of this sort of trend, and by doing so, not only can there be a galaxy where everyone tries to beat the AI, which would probably win, sinply by virtue of being more active, which is sort of the point, actually.  It doesn't take any brains or skill to be successful at this game, just enough time on your hands to do all the mundane tasks that a robot could do, really.

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> ~Killas~ wrote:

> Ok, read a little more

Xeno: Let's automate IC
Killas: this will create imbalance
Render: "I iz a nub"
Arby: No
Xeno: Yes
Arby: No
Jaguar: Maybe
Xeno: "+1 for jaguar" & %blah% & %blah%
Killas: Here is your summary Render

Now give me tag points!!


Why do you want tag points, anyway?  What good are they?  Can you trade in certain amount of tag points allow you to unlock auto-retake function?

12 (edited by Orbit 03-Nov-2012 08:51:11)

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

Xeno, i think this idea is a bit too far, but it raises some interesting points,  a more detailed analysis of attack reports and opps would allow players to react quicker without needing to sift through family news and recent reports. 

I still believe my idea of players being able to take aid from each other solves some problems with simplifying the small waiting processes of this game.

But i do think some automation could be used for building expos, building fleet or building planets.  for ex you can set to build max expos daily,  set fleet builds for things like agents, wizzies which always need attending. 

This is worth considering to make the game flow more evenly.

"It's very quiet on the political arena. I wish someone would stir up some trouble!"

13 (edited by Captain Xenu 03-Nov-2012 17:07:48)

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> Orbit wrote:

> Xeno, i think this idea is a bit too far,

Nono... it isn't too far.  Automation is necessary for this game's future success.  Not automating processes is not going far enough.  Remember, this game needs to appeal to mass audience, not just those who like data-entry.  Automation is a first step in developing AI, NPC empires...

Think about how an NPC empire could pwn us by simply being efficient.

I think the main problem is retaking and intel.  I mean consider the wasted ops and morale involved in retaking planets.  Have you ever sent out a bunch of fleets to planets only to find out an ally or fam member has already sent fleets there?  Have you ever tried to retake planets a banker lost and blown your fleet because you didn't know it had been a laser trap your banker had built?  We need the game to automatically make available number of last known lasers and last known infra on planets.  We need a way to know who has sent what sorts of fleets to which planets, whose fleets are hovering where.

It is simple: in system view, a little pop-up info box appears when you hover your mouse over a planet.  The info box looks like this:

xx,xx:xx
I: 78L 276 MF, 259 RC, 10 OC  (75% Green / 25% Yellow)
Portal=none Sab'd Week 27,7  (100% Green)
estimated s. forces = none (25% Yellow / 75% Red)
Fleets enroute = Xeno of #7856 780B, 5kF, 105T, 10500D ETA 5 ticks

All this info is color coded to express its reliability with green indicating reliable intel and red indicating that the intel is old and has probably changed.

Such development IS a form of automation, because instead of asking an ally or fam member to PI and IP the planet, the intell on the planet has been automatically shared with everyone in fam and allies by ops done previously (you and your fam members have selected to 'share intel' with all fam members and allies).

Say 5 ticks later, the attack is made, but fails.
The intel on the planet is updated automatically for all players in fam and allies by battle reports as follows:

xx,xx:xx
I: 0L, 276 MF, 259 RC, 10 OC  ("0L" is 100% Green because by battle report we know the lasers were destroyed and cannot have been rebuilt yet, while "276 MF, 259 RC, 10 OC" is 70% Green / 30% Yellow because it has now been say 20 ticks since last PI on the planet)
Portal = none Sab'd Week 27,7  (100% Green)
estimated s. forces = +100kF, +5kD ("+100kF, +5kD" is 100% green.  From battle report, game has does an automatic estimate of stationed forces)
Fleets enroute = none

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

No, why?

15 (edited by Render 03-Nov-2012 17:33:52)

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> Orbit wrote:

> Xeno, i think this idea is a bit too far....


LOL every idea he writes is a much too far, so I've decided to not read em at all, it's my own decision, and I'm surprised this one have had that much posts.
This all said, I keep my respect for Zeno as great role-play writer, but he has to realise the game has his limits


edit: I iz noob >>>> killas iz noob

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

Render, the game is limited by our willingness to improve it.

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

> Captain Xenu wrote:

> Render, the game is limited by our willingness to improve it.


Personally I would think the game is limited by what the devs can do to improve it.  I just think you ask for things not possible with what is available. 

No offense meant, but what your idea comes across as, let those too lazy to be active enough to login a couple times a day and spend more then 5 mins, automate the game.  That is part of the game, the things you see as a waste of time and mundane, are what makes a good player vs a inactive player.  Now maybe there are games out there that do that, but they are not any I play.  It defeats the purpose to playing the game to automate it.  Part of IC, at least in my opinion, it is spending time deciding what to build, when to build and not knowing all the time how many lasers there were or well i lost x amount of planets, but it's ok because the game will automatically send retakes and oh btw there are more lasers now there, because the other guy knows x amount is coming.  So he/she stationed enough to keep it and let the other player kill all his fleet off auto-retaking.  It just makes no practical sense and would be a complete nightmare to try and implement.   

If your going to play a game and be at the top you have to spend time on it.  All games are like that, there are definitely probs with the game, that can improve activeness and new membership.  Even if you are very active in this game, you may end at the bottom.  That is IC, that is the game.   Making it play itself defeats the purpose to play.  What sense of achievement do you get that the game automated 90% for you while your inactive so you can spend 10 mins a day "stratagizing" ?  I have read quite a few post from you in the past.  They all show that you want an IC that is more based on the individual and allows single players to excel.  That is not wrong, but that is not the normal galaxies in IC.  That is what hardcore gal where made for.  But, sadly to do well in those you still have to be active.  The reason the game forces team/fam coop is that is how the game was designed.  Inactiveness in this game is a plague, I understand that.  But, that is part of the game.  Having the top "active" fams run the bottom "unactive" to the ground is not good for the game either.  But, automating it is not the answer.  Having played the game on and off for 13-14 years, i understand the frustration of being active in an unactive fam, or spending way too much time to end up getting nothing.  But,  that is the way any game goes, there are winners and losers.  Otherwise why play?  The game needs more competitiveness, those who play IC long ago know that is what made it fun.  There are many ideas out there that help that, but they dont include making inactiveness a benefit.


******* synopsis for those to lazy to read (i don't blame you, i didn't even re-read what i typed).  I am old i rant allot, Xenu automation is not the answer.   There are many smaller, easier to impalement ideas that can increase competitiveness and make it worth playing for more then 5 minutes a day.*******   Thank you all for your time, i will now go back to my nap.

“Do not follow where the path may lead. Go, instead, where there is no path and leave a trail.” — Ralph Waldo Emerson

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

"let those too lazy to be active enough to login a couple times a day and spend more then 5 mins"

You confuse laziness with being intelligent enough not to waste time doing ridiculously mundane tasks, time that that simple improvements could SAVE.

You advocate keeping redundant, mundane tasks in place which are NOT FUN, and you then you call people who omplain about it lazy?  Are you kidding me.  And you wonder why this game doesn't attract players.

Seriously.  Stop wasting players' time, morale, resources, GC by developing the game to facilitate efficiency.  It's simple.  Consider development needs from the average player's point of view, those who don't have 20 hours a day to send retakes, build infra one tick at a time, chat and send ingame messages to coordinate attacks.  Stop wasting people's ops by having intel shared on map.

I'm not discussing this any more.  Just more waste of time, like this game, since people won't see the obvious improvements necessary for this game's success.

Fine.  I'm done with this game.

19

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

Zeno, this game is done with you, you're completely forgetting that mods and devs are not payed, and they are the ones spending hours and hours for free, not the players, players have fun while they have to work hard to make em happy.
You dont realize there are more important improvements needed in the game before even thinkin about your perfeccionist ideas. In the unprobable case they'd implement your ideas they would surely fail because those important improvements haven't been arranged.  Within the last improvements added to the game suddenly appear a lot of bugs that devs are constantly repairing, you cannot provide a Ferrari with wings because it goes against F1 rules, but even if their engineers managed to do that, they would have to make a lot of improvements in the car itself to make it fly, not just the wings.

Your colaboration and spent time in this game and ideas is strongly appreciated, but first of all, you should talk to the devs and mods and know the limits of the game, what is doable and what is worth their time, and then think about terrenal ideas that will sure come to your mind, considering you have a genious one, and stop dreaming.

20

Re: automation is necessary for AI and IC's future

killas we have already that, its build to percent