Topic: The United States and oil independence

At the end of 2006 the recoverable coal reserves amounted around 800 or 900 gigatonnes. The United States Energy Information Administration gives world reserves as 998 billion short tons (equal to 905 gigatonnes)


The United States has 27.1% of the proven coal reserves of the world.

The Karrick process is a low temperature carbonization (LTC) of coal, shale, lignite or any carbonaceous materials. These are heated at 680

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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Re: The United States and oil independence

Homework:

Write an essay on the word "Finite".

tongue

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

Re: The United States and oil independence

When i arrive home i will do a better post, but doesn't 70% of your electricity came from coal? And doesn't this process makes alot of CO2? Also i have read somewhere that the coal will run out in 150 years (will try to find a link).

4 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 18-Jun-2008 03:26:52)

Re: The United States and oil independence

> Freelancer wrote:

> When i arrive home i will do a better post, but doesn't 70% of your electricity came from coal? And doesn't this process makes alot of CO2? Also i have read somewhere that the coal will run out in 150 years (will try to find a link).

I'm not going to address CO2 (I avoid global warming debates), but wouldn't 150 years be more than enough time to transition to a renewable energy source?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: The United States and oil independence

Skoe, you really want me to go through them?  That works!


Ethanol
Geothermal energy
Expansion of wave energy
More efficient solar energy
Bio energy (burning of anything biodegradable)
Nuclear fission
Nuclear fusion


And that's off the top of my head.  As for being outdated... that's irrelevant.  Governments aren't corporations trying to make a profit on the latest "new thing" in the world.  Hell, most of the ideas I said are technologies that either already exist, or would just need modifications or expansion to make feasible.  The key is to have another fuel to use in the transition.

Besides, the alternative is that we keep burning oil, run out, crash, and die.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: The United States and oil independence

"I cannot think as to why we are not exploiting our resources to help keep the lower income earners able to drive."

Simple answer: The US as a nation has not cared about the well being of low-income individuals for some time.  low-income workers are a lot like machines, most people don't care how they work or what they need as long as they run smoothly.

However I doubt the true answer is that simple.  Do you have any pricing on the process.  Could be as simple as it's still cheaper to buy foreign oil.  Alternatively the Government/Corporations could just be holding off on digging into those reserves until oil in the Middle East and other regions becomes scarce so they can maximize profit from exporting oil.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: The United States and oil independence

"I'm not going to address CO2 (I avoid global warming debates), but wouldn't 150 years be more than enough time to transition to a renewable energy source?"

CO2 must be a factor! And if you are going to use this method to creat fuel then you will increase the amount of coal used per day that would decrease the 150 years mark. So since USA uses the coal to make 70% of electricity you have to make a decision.

1-Don't care about time/price and start consuming more coal.

This will increase coal price decreasing the benefits of using this has a fuel, it would also decrease the amount of years you will have coal. So instead of having 150 years of coal you have know lets say 75 years. This will creat problems since after the 75 years USA have not only lost the way they make fuel but also 70% of electricity production. And do not forget that in the last years the price will sky rocket.

2- If USA cares about time and price

USA will have to reduce the amount of coal used to produce electricity, Then for USA to supply the some amount, it will have to start developing new ways of producing electricity, like some methods mention above by you. This will increase the amount of time available for using this process that can also make small amount of electricity at no more cost.

The second way of doing thing is a good method for buying out time to continue to use gasoline and etc has fuels. the problem in investing in this process is that alot of money will be spend to buy a few years more. Wouldn't this money be more profitable spending somewhere else?

Re: The United States and oil independence

The term "Fossel Fuel" for Oil is not being rethought.

What is "Fossil Fuel" ??   The rotted corpes of dead dinosaurs ?  Rotted vegetation from yore ?

Its now believed that oil seeps Up into the crust from below, in the Mantle.
Numerous sources, Google it up.

So, .... with that said, define:

Peak Oil
and
Supply of oil.

No one can.  Not yet.

If we cant even come to terms w/what is peak oil, is oil a fossil fuel, or is there a finite supply ??

How can anyone predict the end ?

* * * *

To the thread......We, the US, needs to challenge the big US Oil companies.  Give each of them areas to drill in Alaska, the Govt. contracts out to shipping companies to build a port.......

And the US Govt. gets the hell out of the way.......let the big Corporation deliver.

They sure as hell will, in no time.

Just the THREAT of a mandated Speedy development of that source will start the market correcting down.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The United States and oil independence

An alternative approach to solving the energy crisis: A society that provides for the universal opportunity for human self-actualization.

Evolution involves the process of adaptation - that is, those organisms of a particular species who have a better capability to adapt to changes in their environment are generally more successful at reproducing offspring who will likewise be more successful at adapting to similar environmental changes.  The environmental changes currently facing our species involves a number of factors, the most influential of which include global warming and the energy crisis.  The particular groups of humans of our species that will be most capable at adapting to the environmental and societal changes to come will be members of those societies that have secured (or made best use of) technology and energy resources to foster their adaptation.  Let's face it, without technological solutions, we, humans, are simply ill-adapted to the natural environment as it is today, nevermind the future, potentially even harsher environment that will come due to further global warming.  In other words, our survival is intertwined with how we will use energy and the technologies that are powered by it: the 'energy-based technologically adept societies' will survive whilst those lacking in technological and energy resources will, to put it bluntly, die off.

Imagine, if you will, a futuristic scenario 500 years in the future, where the oceans' avergage temperature has increased not by 10 degrees at the equator and 20 at the poles.  The ocean's oxygen producing plankton has been rendered almost entirely extinct due to the higher water temperatures.  The ice caps have almost entirely melted (except for a small region at the south pole), and sea levels have risen 30 meters.  The equator's average air temperature at sea level frequently reaches 60 degrees Celcius, causing continuous cyclonic storms coined 'The Little Red Spots' to ravaged equatorial regions the extent where the few areas of natural vegetation yet surviving are frequently decimated, resulting in equatorial desertification. Due to the destruction of both the oxygen producing equatorial rain forests and oceanic plankton, the atomosphere's composition is less than 4% oxygen, leaving most of Planet Earth's animal species extinct, as they simply could not evolutionarily adapt quickly enough to this extremely rapid and unprecedented atmosphereic change.  The arid, scorching and now uninhabited deserts have spread to the arctic and antarctic circles.  And, finally, at the poles, where flora or fauna life as we know it could possibly survive, there is only a radioactive wasteland due to the nuclear bombs that were dropped on the last remaining planet-side human settlements - inhabited by those considered terrorists by the 'off-worlder' humans, who are descended from those who had always controlled the technology and energy resources of human society to satisfy their inbred fetish desire for POWER for POWER's sake, and took every conceivable measure regardless of the repercussions to other 'lesser' lifeforms - human or otherwise - to keep it. 


Now, imagine, if you will, an alternative, futuristic scenario 500 years into the future, where life goes on pretty much as it is now, except just a little better: people drive flying hydrogen-powered cars faster than the speed of sound to work from their homes in the woods or on mountain peaks 600 + kms away from the office.  Every human on the planet can easily afford such a flying car, as well as a nice home with ample space for a garden, which they are happy to tend during their 4 days off a week.  Of course, there are a few people, who for the sake of enjoying their job so much, work 7 days a week and live closer to their places of work.  It is such a society where those those who prefer not to work at all can easily pursue their self-actualization dreams and aspirations of traveling the world (or solar system), or learning languages, musical instruments, or yoga, or finite mathematics, or kungfu, or whatever it is they might like to learn or experience.  They have their homes in a forest by a lake or on a mountain top or in a pleasant city, as well their own flying car just like most people in spite of not 'working', as all material necessities for the individual human life (nutrition and health, shelter, safety, sense of belonging, and self-actualization, and a clean and balanced environment) are made available by a new energy-matter-energy transference technology.  This technology was not held before the masses as something for which they should have to fight, or work or die trying, but, rather, was made freely available to them by a compassionate and just political body void of members with such a psychotic neurotic lust for power as described in the first scenario.

What I suggest as a preliminary step towards this second, and, I would say, more desirable scenario, is to guide the direction our society is taking towards a more compassionate and just one, where individuals' opportunity to pursue their self-actualization is not dangled in front of their faces by some malevolent socio-economic system that seeks to make you work, pay taxes, and buy, buy, buy, until the day you die, but, rather, is fostered by a socio-economic system which through a process of its members conducting peaceful protest and, if necessary, civil disobedience, ensures that the barest levels of technology and energy necessary for human survival is easily obtainable by any person for a ever-DECREASING percentage of their price of labor.  Then, when the vast majority of us have the leisure time available to educate and self-actualize ourselves, perhaps one of US will discover the technological advancement that will ensure the survival of us all.

Re: The United States and oil independence

"Its now believed that oil seeps Up into the crust from below, in the Mantle.
Numerous sources, Google it up."

You forgot the part about this only being a theory of a tiny minority (cranks?)

The vast majority of scientific opinion considers this to be nonsense.

Re: The United States and oil independence

Isent oil like dead plants and such? And nothing seeps up from the crust except magma. Or Hawaii would be an oil paradise.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

Re: The United States and oil independence

Actually the increase in tempature you noted would actually increase living areas for plankton. Check out the math man tongue


Also additionally it would increase the growing areas for food



Nice Al Goreism however. 10 outta 10!


As for global warming make a separate thread if you must. But I have stated with strong proofs that all that global warming is bull crap. Pure and simple. In fact all scientists cringe now when they hear global warming. Those that supported it quickly say "not that please, call it Climate Change" and those who scoffed at global warming will be like, "dang kid you are so outdated on the fake science efforts... global warming was disproven and all it's supporters who knew better ran away!"

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The United States and oil independence

Its now .... "What is your Carbon Footprint ?"

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The United States and oil independence

They are trying Black_Wing... but thats not being as successful as they wish. In fact no one except like 2 small nations on the Kyoto Accord will even keep to their own selfmade standards... some are going to just blow it outta the water. Collectively they cant even act like they will keep to the accord, but they would turn on us in a second and blame us if we were part of the accord, lol.

Give it 4 more years and the utter ruin of one nations economy to try to keep to their standards and that will be replaced with some other nonsense as they see it will lead to a backlash which will endanger their lives and livelihoods.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The United States and oil independence

lol
in 4 more years your economy will be in utter ruins regardless of the kyoto garbage

Re: The United States and oil independence

I will concede that point if Obama wins, and admit it. But if McCain wins, and Democrats dont get to many seats, then I wont concede it.

However there is the whiplash that will occur in 2010 as well, as conservatives will be coming back with a vengence... so perhaps you place to long a time frame on that

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The United States and oil independence

@ Han

And Canada will do what ??

With less US Demand, and a declining US Dollar, Canada saw their Trade Surplus EVAPORATE....this coming out of the high demand winter months.

Overview
In the fourth quarter of 2007 real gross domestic product (GDP) increased 0.8%, the slowest pace of growth since the second quarter of 2003. For the year as a whole real GDP increased 2.7%, down slightly from 2.8% in 2006.
Real final domestic demand remained robust in the fourth quarter, rising 6.9%, its strongest growth rate in 11 years. Strong household and corporate balance sheets, together with a healthy labour market, continued to underpin domestic demand. Employment rose 2.9% in the fourth quarter, up from 1.7% in the third quarter. In February 2008, the unemployment rate remained at 5.8%, matching a 33-year low.
Real exports fell while real imports grew strongly in the fourth quarter, contributing to lower GDP growth in the quarter and to a narrowing of the trade surplus. The current account declined from a surplus of $5.3 billion in the third quarter to a deficit of $2.1 billion in the fourth quarter, the first deficit in the current account since the second quarter of 1999. For 2007 as a whole, the current account registered a significant surplus of $14.2 billion or 0.9% of nominal GDP.


http://www.fin.gc.ca/ECONBR/ecbr08-04e.html

Exports .... Down
Imports .... Up.
Consumer demand, inflation and unemployment...... UP.  Although unemployment is historically in good shape.

So goes the US Economy, so goes the world.....but with Canada and Mexico

So goes the US, so goes Canada and Mexico, exponentially.
Canada's Economy cannot absorb trade deficits, you need the US to consume your products.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

18 (edited by xeno syndicated 19-Jun-2008 01:36:31)

Re: The United States and oil independence

Einstein, you're wrong


"In a NASA study,[...] scientists found that whenever climate warmed, marine plant life in the form of phytoplankton declined."

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2006/warm_marine_multimedia.html

"As the Earth

Re: The United States and oil independence

@BW

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/080529/d080529a.htm

The current account surplus with the rest of the world (on a seasonally adjusted basis) increased sharply to $5.6 billion in the first quarter of 2008, led by higher prices for several exported commodities combined with a lower travel deficit. The deficits on commercial services and investment income were largely unchanged.

Seems like Canada is doing quite ok with record commodity prices.
How's it going in the US?
I hear 1 in 11 mortgages are in default.

Re: The United States and oil independence

You might also see the word "Surplus" up there
When was the last time the US saw that word?

Your deficit is 150B+ per quarter.

21 (edited by xeno syndicated 19-Jun-2008 15:13:40)

Re: The United States and oil independence

Yeah, unlike the US's Federal Reserve, Canada doesn't have a bunch of goons running their central bank.  Can we say the same for China, Han?

Re: The United States and oil independence

How quickly did the Little Ice Age come along? Oh yeah less than 50 years...


So much for 1000's of years to adapt...

Plankton are everywhere, but in less quantities in less 'viable' areas. As the range of viability changes so does their growth in those areas... however if heating occurs more areas are open to viability than not open.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The United States and oil independence

Einstein.  The little ice age only shows that freakish climatic changes can occur all of a sudden, just as easily to the warmer extremes as the cooler extremes.  It's aside from the point.

The point is that plankton don't freakin migrate - they're virtually microscopic.  If they start dying off in one area all of a sudden (due to anthropogenic global warming or some other sort of fast climatic change, like a 100 year period of increased frequency of sunspot activity), what do you think will happen?  Do some of the plankton get together and say to their buddies, "Hey, mates, we're getting just plain old cooked in these warmer waters, let's head north!" (or south if they're Aussie plankton).  If a population of, let's say, a thousand plankton happen to drift with the ocean currents to more 'viable areas' how long do you think it will take them to multiply into the hundred freaking GOOGOLPLEX that have already been lost?

Re: The United States and oil independence

Ah yeah so you admit that global warming and climate change theories are a bunch of hocus pocus since there is ample evidence of nature doing things on her own without human interference?



And plankton dont just choose to 'not live' somewhere. There is plankton in the artic, in the antartic, in the equator, and everywhere. The amounts differ due to clime conditions, but changes will mean one area goes down, and another area goes up.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The United States and oil independence

It is a flaw in logic to suggest that the evidence of "nature doing things on her own without human interference" disproves or somehow nullifies the and  either the possibility or ample evidence of humans doing things to cause global warming / climate change.  If you really are a politician, I very much doubt you'll be one much longer if you go around saying stuff using such faulty logic.  Just make sure you keep letting other people write your speeches for you and tell you what to say and how to think, because if you actually let your OWN brain voice itself, well, hold on - stop that thought.  Actually, never mind what I said.  Give it a try. smile