Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

I am not a Catholic, though I understand Chris and Zarf are. I am a non-denominational Christian seeking out information always.

So I want to discuss Catholicism in a peaceful manner with him, maybe Zarf, and any other Christians.

Nonbelievers posting be trolls unless they factually contribute real information, not some silly 'no God' crap.


So Chris, four starting questions:

1) Do the faithful pray to icons of Saints, or to the Saints themselves

2) where does the Pope gain the authority to be God's messenger on Earth?

3) How come there is no exocommunications anymore?

4) In Catholicism does anyone actually go to hell?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
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2 (edited by Justinian I 07-Sep-2012 02:39:56)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

1. It's called the intercession of saints. The saint functions as the medium between the faithful and God. They have access to God, which allows them to obtain graces on behalf of the faithful. An intercessory prayer to a saint(e.g., to Mary) is not the same as worship, it's more like getting the attention of one of God's officials responsible for listening to the needs of his faithful.

2. The Pope is the legitimate successor of St.Peter, and being Bishop of Rome is the highest authority, because, well, it's Rome.

3. There are still excommunications. For example, Catholics who are involved in an abortion are automatically excommunicated without need for formal decree (latae sententiae).

4. Catholics have varying beliefs about hell. Two common beliefs among Catholics is that hell is a state of being separated from God, and others believe it's a place.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

...

A religion thread...

and the one who gives theologically accurate, on-point, no-bullshit answers...

is JUSTINIAN?!?!?!?




I've stopped trying to understand this place now.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

I'm agnostic.

To deep south god fearing christians, that's just as close to satan worshipping.

Do not get me started on religion.

I give a damn if your going to heaven or hell.  I don't care if your going to wink out of existance.  I don't care if your going to go to limbo.  I don't rightly care if your going to reincarnate as a newt.  Hopefully not a gingrich.  Small pun.  Very small pun.

When your dead, your dead, if you want to worry your pretty little head on what happens after death...well then you should be the only fricking person worried about your own soul.  I should NOT have to listen to a bunch of jerk wads state I'm going to go to hell, because they say that I don't believe in god.  My soul, is my own concern.  Not yours.  Not some preacher.  Not the Holy See.  It is not your problem, what happens to my soul.  You may think that your helping people understand how religion leads to the path of glory of heaven.  But that shouldn't be your worry.  Your worry should be for yours, and yours alone.  Everyone else should come to their own belief system, on their own.  They should not have to be threatened, cajoled, programmed into a belief that was never truelly their own.

In that regards, and I quote Lieutenant Dan, from a special movie called Forrest Gump.  "God is listening?  God can kiss my crippled ass!"

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

5 (edited by The Yell 07-Sep-2012 05:42:23)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Justinian got it almost all right

Yes we do not pray to saints, we ask them to pray with us like you ask people to pray for your grandmother.  As we say every Sunday "We pray...in union with them and with all the angels and saints who have done Your will throughout the ages".  A saint is somebody who is awake in the Presence of God right now, without waiting for the day of judgment.  Scriptural basis for this is bodily assumption of Enoch, and Elijah, the appearance of Samuel to Saul, the vision on the Mount of Olives where Jesus conversed with Moses and Elijah, the statement of Christ to the thief on the cross that "Truly this day you will be with me in Paradise", and the vision of St. Stephen as he was martyred.

This can get confused with idolatry, also the assigning of "superpowers" like St. Anthony will help you find things... the point of a "patron saint" is to remind you that whehter you drive a truck or have cancer or are being martyred there is somebody who was stuck like you who was saved and redeemed.

The Pope has authority as the successor of St. Peter.  I don't think he's officially Bishop of Rome anymore, that duty may be done by  a Vatican cardinal.  Intererestly since Vatican II the Vatican recognizes the Orthodox and Coptic (Ethiopian) and Chaldean (Iraqi) churches as being doctrinally and sacramentally valid while being technically separate of Vatican authority.  I don't think they reciprocate, at least not locally.  Since Vatican II the authority is not autocratic.   The Pope is understood to work through bishops, and a good bishop is one who obeys the Pope.  So if an American bishop were to defy the Pope it is other bishops who really lower the boom on them.  You were in the Army Einstein, you know how a good sergeant gets the platoon to carry out discipline for him

Hell is a state of being for people who denied God.  There are people in visions who claimed to see a lake of fire or souls enchained and dragged towards a dark pit of evil.  Basically, we are told not to worry so much about what Hell is like and spend more time staying out of it.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

6 (edited by Key 07-Sep-2012 06:23:00)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

I always figured earth was hell.  Or at least the emboidement of get your crap together to make a better life for yourself, and rise above the hellish nature of mankind.

I'm agnostic. And each agnostic person has their own unique set of beliefs when it comes to the afterlife.  My personal belief is, when you die, why worry?  Everyone works so hard to do the right thing, to be the right kind of person, in order to assure that when they die, that they are treated to some sort of reward.  I find that atypical of most faiths.  Live a life careing unto others and your place in heaven is assured.  A reward for living a life of good.

Crap.

But it's your crap belief.  I won't deny you your beliefs.  Because they are yours.  I don't believe that living a good life, taht you should automatically receive a reward by being allowed into heaven.  To me that's presumption.  I don't konw how many people I met of the religious faith that frown upon, look down upon, or chastise others because they think or believe DIFFERENLTY.  I personally think it sucks.  I'm told i'm going to hell for being agnostic?  What bullshit is that?  That's presumption.  I could live a good, decent life, helping others.  But being agnostic automatically shoves me into hell?

That's bullshit.  That's crap. And that's religion.

What about gays and lesbians.  Sure lets take that on.   You can be a devotely christan gay or lesbian, but the catholic church denounces that lifestyels and says it's a sin.  And sinners will burn in hell for all eternity.  That's presumption, especially if god is such a loving god, such as he is.  But if a person leads a different lifestyle, or has a different set of values, or set of beliefs, then that person is going to hell. Hmmmmm....

So Liberace is in hell?  George Carlin is in hell?  The Jews are going to go to hell?  Along with all budhists.  And the politicians.  And the corporate money grubbers.  Their all gonna go to hell.

Alfred E. Newman once said, "What, Me worry?"  Well, that's my chain of thought right now, when it comes to the afterlife.  What, me worry?

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

I believe George Carlin is in Hell, deprived of his memory and forced to watch his own routines.  "Who IS this guy? Was that a joke?  How is a hating people with fat gums a joke? Who's laughing at this shit?  He gets shot, right? This is building up to him getting shot, that's why you have this video?"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

George Carlin was shot?

I thought the funniest routine was that loudmouthed other comedian.  What's his name?  The former preacher.  The former priest.  The former gospel guy...what was his name?   Oh yah.  Sam Kinison.  The joke went around that, he told so many jokes about people getting hit by drunk drivers, and he himself was hit...and killed by a drunk driver.  I think the words are called ironic?  A god fearing christian that went and saw a new light, and told racist, sexist, religious jokes.  And did lots of alcohol, and drugs, and sex.  Must have been an uplifting experience.

To bad most christians thinks that he's in hell right now.

http://famousdeadmormons.com/index.php?id=109

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

er no, he was the drunk driver
I think his last words were
AAAA AAAA! AAAAAAAA!

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Religion is the strongest plasebo there is

LORD HELP OREGON

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Now Noir I will agree with.

"God does not help those, who do not help themselves".

In that arguement, the only person that can help you is...you.  God has no more a master plan, than what plan that you can create for yourself.

Faith is a placebo.  It lifts you up, when it's no more than you trying to pick yourself up.  I won't argue with a religiouc bent person, that believes otherwise, because those arguements are self defeating.  A non-believer, and a believer will never see eye to eye.

But I think we all digress as to the original post.

SO WHAT, if the democrats didn't use the word GOD in their speach more than republicans, I give a damn.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Because if they don't respect God, those of us who do, probably shouldn't obey them.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

13 (edited by Key 09-Sep-2012 06:18:38)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Obey?

Uhhhh....i'm not sure where this Obey comes from.

I'm sure if I was to Love My Neighbor, that means if the Republicans said to go to war, I could tell them to go to hell...

If you want to go with the Laws Created by Democrats, and the Laws Created by God Fearing Christian Republicans....then i'd tell both equally to kiss my ass...

I'm pretty sure, if I wasn't ready for children, and I decdide to wear a condom, then the Holy See and the Republican Party could seriously take a leap off a cliff, and kiss my ass before doing it.

The whole idea of who said God more in their speach, means only that one party was looking for more of the Christian Vote, and tried to hammer that arguement in of why the Democrats shouldn't be allowed the presidency for another four years.

Really now?  We're going to have an arguement of how many times the word God, was used inside a political speach?  We couldn't find any better arguement than that?

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

if the universe is a cosmic accident why do I care what you think? Disperse into "God Particles" from whence you sprang. tongue

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Its telling that the religious think that without their god they would have no morals.

Most of us dont need an imaginary friend to know right from wrong.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

And you're very generous with the learning curve, aren't you?  "That was my opportunity to learn something, and, if somebody else feels they were the victim, it's their growth opportunity to move on from caring too much about such things...if they refuse to grow and get stuck in the past, sucks for them"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

smile That can be said for both believers and non-believers who use the same arguement of "sucks to be them."

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

"Obey?

Uhhhh....i'm not sure where this Obey comes from."

it's in the part where they win the election and then become the government and start passing laws and stuff

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

19 (edited by Key 09-Sep-2012 17:33:22)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Lol!

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about 1984, like it was real or something.

=^o.o^= When I'm cute I can be cute.  And when I'm mean, I can be very very mean.  I'm a cat.  Expect me to be fickle.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

I am also a catholic, but also a whoremonger

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sdffdgjfhjdfhgjhsfsdfqgsbsthzgflqkcgjhkgfjnbkmzghkmqrghqmskdghqkmsghnvhdf
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Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

an Icon is more of an Orthodox item than Roman Catholic.  It's not only a painting of a religious subject, the materials are gathered and consecrated in a certain way and the work is done accompanied by prayers.  So it's the end product of a performance as well as an object, and that's why it gets a great deal of veneration

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

as Einstein has passed this by I presume he is attending RCIA classes

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Nope...chewing on it.

Explain Sundays and Christmas now if you wish.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

big_smile

What about them?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: a frank discussion of Religion with Chris

Adventists say Saturday is the Sabbath... and Sun religion stuff.

Christmas is also supposedly controversial

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)