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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

...as soon as my Chinese supplier gets me the stuff.

I'm not accusing big-foot or nothing. It's possible she's legit. But there's certainly cause for concern. And when your nation is a communist hell hole where oppression is the ideal and slavery is the deal, it's pretty impossible to make a convincing case for her defense.

China's government reserves the right to imprison or kill (along with their families) anyone who could be questioned in probing the matter. They've given up any right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

then again where would mark phelps be without flouridated water? HMMMMM?????

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Yea, and no american athelete has ever been caught for doping tongue

NEE NAW NEE NAW

Primo

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

I think its just funny how everyone cheers when a 15 year old lithuanian wins gold totally unexpected.. that lovely girl.. she did so good..
and when a 16 year old chineese wins it is SO obvious she has been taking stuff.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

And now, Mr. Phelps will sound off on illegal doping in the Olympics!

"Oh shit...hahahaha...hold on....lemme kill this...<gurrgglle> hahahahhahahhahaa....ok...ok...what?"

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

She has been training in Australia for the last yr or two. So basically on par with an aussie swimmer, and thoroughly tested just like any other Aussie swimmer.

The only difference is that shes not a fat lazy slob like half the aussie female swimming team.

Though her time is suspiciously fast... Aussie swimmers have been commenting on the fact that they havent seen her about in the last 6 months also.

/me shrugs

"I lie down next to an angel, fall asleep and fly with the demons"
I once prayed to god for some planets, but quickly found out he didnt work that way

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7 Reply by V. Kemp (edited by V. Kemp 01-Aug-2012 16:55:19)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

[TI] Primo,

Does the fact that Americans have doped negate the fact that the Chinese make investigating the matter impossible, whereas America does not? Or the fact that China is a a prime developer of new steroids?

Nope.



Schniepel,

Does Lithuania reserve the right to imprison and kill people (and their families) who might give the wrong answers when questioned in investigation of these matters?

Nope.



I'm simply raising the question. There are differences between China and Lithuania and the time improvements of their swimmers. There are differences between these nations' power to conceal illegal activity and avoid hinder investigation. There are differences in these nations' development of new and harder-to-detect steroids (which aren't being looked for yet).

That you're jealous of America doesn't touch on any of these points or negate them in any way.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

can you provide any sources about china reserving the right to kill people with wrong answers?

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

No I'm just making it up. China's not an authoritarian regime. They don't lock people up and execute them for speech. And you're not trolling with the ridiculous implication that China's government has any limitations to its authority over its people.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Asking you for evidence is trolling?  hmm

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

I'm sorry I missed the part where anyone provided any evidence of limitations on the Chinese government preventing it from doing anything it wanted. We all know that no such limitations exist. They got away with killing many tens of millions of people because there are no such limitations.

Pretending that there are is either trolling or ridiculously ignorant. How someone could be so cocky that they'd ignorantly post as if China's government isn't authoritarian is beyond me. I gave everyone the benefit of the doubt.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Doesn't burden of proof rest on the guy making the accusation of systemic genocides?

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

I would have thought so Zarf.

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14 Reply by The Yell (edited by The Yell 01-Aug-2012 19:21:03)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Yeah it turns out Spock is wrong

http://en.chinacourt.org/public/detail.php?id=5

Article 105 Among those who organize, plot or carry out the scheme of subverting the State power or overthrowing the socialist system, the ringleaders and the others who commit major crimes shall be sentenced to life imprisonment or fixed-term imprisonment of not less than 10 years; the ones who take an active part in it shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not less than three years but not more than 10 years; and the other participants shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not more than three years, criminal detention, public surveillance or deprivation of political rights.

Whoever incites others by spreading rumors or slanders or any other means to subvert the State power or overthrow the socialist system shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not more than five years, criminal detention, public surveillance or deprivation of political rights; and the ringleaders and the others who commit major crimes shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not less than five years.

Article 290 Where people are gathered to disturb public order to such a serious extent that work in general, production, business operation, teaching or scientific research cannot go on and heavy losses are caused, the ringleaders shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not less than three years but not more than seven years; the active participants shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not more than three years, criminal detention, public surveillance or deprivation of political rights.

Article 293 Whoever commits any of the following acts of creating disturbances, thus disrupting public order, shall be sentenced to fixed- term imprisonment of not more than five years, criminal detention or public surveillance:

(1) beating another person at will and to a flagrant extent;

(2) chasing, intercepting or hurling insults to another person to a flagrant extent;

(3) forcibly taking or demanding, willfully damaging, destroying or occupying public or private money or property to a serious extent; or

(4) creating disturbances in a public place, thus causing serious disorder in such place.

Article 296 Where an assembly, a procession or a demonstration is held with no application made in accordance with the provisions of law or no permission granted for the application or where it is held not in accordance with the time for start and stop, venue and routes permitted by the competent authorities, and the order of dismission is disobeyed and public order seriously disrupted, the persons who are in charge and the persons who are directly responsible for the assembly, procession or demonstration shall be sentenced to fixed-term imprisonment of not more than five years, criminal detention, public surveillance or deprivation of political rights.

See? If you stop your kid from being taken to camp and drugged, and call on neighbors to help you, the penalty is not death; it is 28 years

per occurrence...if it happens again Wednesday, that's another 28 years

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

so if they DID shoot the parents, the kids could have a big lawsuit, if they were told about it by the State.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Spock the highest authority in China double dog swears cross its heart the fundamental law prohibits that kind of thing.

For now.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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17 Reply by V. Kemp (edited by V. Kemp 01-Aug-2012 20:08:47)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Can I buy you some literature on history?

It's not a contentious issue. Your willful ignorance does not place a burden on me to cite sources for well-established facts. There's no more inherent burden on me to cite sources for the PRC's murder of tens of millions than there is for me to cite dictionary definitions for every word in my posts.

You can google it.
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_nf=1&gs_mss=prc%20geno&pq=prc%20genocide&cp=10&gs_id=2w&xhr=t&q=china+genocide&pf=p&safe=off&sclient=psy-ab&oq=china+geno&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=b752d12a099bb300&biw=1440&bih=775

And that's only references to China's killing as "genocide." Many prefer to pretend the tens of millions of deaths were incidental. Little "oops." moments. Well, okay: Kinda big "oops" moments by any measure.

Or you could check out some wikipedia on mass killings under communist regimes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#People.27s_Republic_of_China

I'll bet you could even finds books solely on the topic.
http://books.google.com/books/about/China_s_Bloody_Century.html?id=4FXn22NKptcC
http://books.google.com/books?id=LQfeXVU_EvgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=zZMLCttHHl&sig=G-KmiuX9TnOlHqBg9tmJCVspggQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v3MZUPL-A8fL6wHhzYH4Bg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=china&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=rgGA91skoP4C&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=S8jeBU2Qtx&sig=i2ns8d5DfyTc0Wa_ehzs7bw_aLY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v3MZUPL-A8fL6wHhzYH4Bg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=china%20genocide&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=BqdVudSuTRIC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=FHeiy0c4o7&sig=U0YuTiCKL65cm7o0kuVgtx6G1bI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v3MZUPL-A8fL6wHhzYH4Bg&ved=0CE4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=china%20genocide&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=ujTR1R36Y04C&printsec=frontcover&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=CP4Q9fAVll&sig=sdZDxCTSXCWv0oeIUwAocphbscA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v3MZUPL-A8fL6wHhzYH4Bg&ved=0CGIQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=china%20genocide&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=B38vOEXBYeQC&printsec=frontcover&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=nVfCYDtC49&sig=fTou8vxKL6sojTNiVW35WNmpBzI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=v3MZUPL-A8fL6wHhzYH4Bg&ved=0CGgQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=china%20genocide&f=false

And let's throw in a little bit about violation of human rights.
http://books.google.com/books?id=jIxCUXI38zcC&printsec=frontcover&dq=china+genocide&source=bl&ots=Oqqvt9H_fk&sig=RvB--g1bcdLUcbWoHO10_iD0XiU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=InQZULTaL5Ks0AHYqoGwAQ&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=china%20genocide&f=false

Hey, I'll bet there are news stories about China violating human rights all over the place.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/south-korea-backing-human-rights-activist-who-claims-he-was-tortured-in-china/2012/07/31/gJQAUqU1NX_story.html
http://blogs.voanews.com/breaking-news/2012/08/01/us-hearing-blasts-working-conditions-in-china/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/us-says-china-human-rights-deteriorating-urges-beijing-to-allow-dissent/2012/07/25/gJQAaBvE9W_story.html
http://www.thetibetpost.com/en/news/international/2743-chinas-repression-causing-tibet-self-immolations-us-rights-report
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/us-officials-lament-deteriorating-human-rights-in-china/story-e6frg6so-1226435488616
http://thehill.com/blogs/global-affairs/human-rights/240153-us-human-rights-situation-in-china-continues-to-deteriorate
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2012-07/28/content_15626509.htm

"The Chinese people are best qualified to judge China's human rights situation,"-Foreign Ministry spokesman Hong Lei.

It's funny because they can't talk about their judgements! See the links above. I can find a lot more if you're not satisfied.

"He added that China has witnessed fast economic growth, continuous improvement of people's livelihood and unprecedented rights and basic freedom for citizens since its reform and opening up."

This is just sadly misleading. The Chinese people don't have "rights" and "freedoms," they have privileges. The Chinese government has no legal restrictions preventing them from rescinding these privileges at any time.

I'll bet I could find more. These are all only very recent stories. I'll bet if I go back far enough I can find absurd stories about the Chinese military running over unarmed protesters with tanks!
http://rendezvous.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/07/26/china-sends-two-to-labor-camp-for-marching-in-hong-kong/
http://www.policymic.com/articles/11290/china-human-rights-crackdown-on-environmental-protests-along-class-lines
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/breaking_news_detail.asp?id=22158&icid=4&d_str=

"US Assistant Secretary of State Michael Posner said he had raised at least two dozen specific cases with his Chinese counterparts."
"American officials voiced concern about the lack of access to legal counsel for detained activists, and called on Beijing to release many detained lawyers and democracy activists, including Nobel laureate Liu Xiaobo."

http://www.newstrackindia.com/newsdetails/2012/07/25/47-Drug-detention-centers-offer-torture-not-treatment-Human-Rights-Watch-study.html
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/opinon/2012/07/137_116018.html
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Culture/Default.aspx?id=1636916

OMG WTF BBQ Torture too!? NO WAI
http://www.arirang.co.kr/News/News_View.asp?nseq=134294&code=Ne2&category=2

I could do this all day. And these are just from the past few days/weeks. They're much worse in previous months/years/decades.

It takes time for some information to escape places with no free speech and no free media. It's conceivable that such a place could cover up grievous crimes altogether. I'm sure you're right. I'm sure they could never do that. It's not like this text is in the middle of a post with an abundance of links to all kinds of information suggesting that they've tried to in the past and more than likely succeeded at least some of the time.

The Communist Party has supreme control of the People's Republic of China. If they will it, it's the law of the land. Nobody is entitled to a vote on any issue. No legal authority can challenge their will.

You're implying I'm incorrect on this obvious fact. Feel free to make that argument. Citations would be appreciated.

It's cute to juvenilely demand sources for common knowledge, but it's not flattering to anyone's intellect or education. The news stories above are all from the past few days/weeks. Needless to say, they continue into the past unbroken (often far more horrendous) since the creation of the PRC.

This is just stupid. If you want to argue that I'm wrong, do it and do it directly. Don't hide behind amateur implications that I'm not being academic enough for your refined intellect and education. If you dispute anything I've claimed, have the nerve to do so. Don't troll and demand I establish the obvious with sources while gutlessly disputing nothing I've said.

If you seriously have no knowledge of the PRC's murder of tens of millions, maybe you should learn more about it and post less about it until you do. Just a thought.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

but they promise not to any more! Swear!

yeah to pretend China isn't trigger happy is nuts

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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19 Reply by The Great Eye (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 01-Aug-2012 20:42:37)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Okay... what are the RECENT instances?  You can't judge the current Chinese regime by past violations any more than you can blame Bush Jr. for the Vietnam War.

I'm not denying that China has engaged in genocide, but a genocide in Vietnam in the 80's or a domestic genocide in the 70's can hardly be said to be a direct influence on a gymnast born in 1995.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

How about the TianAnMen crackdown of 1989?

And how long you think Hu has been in government?  He ain't a two-year newbie

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Zarf: You don't understand Kemp is always right, he is the absolute authority on everything and he believes that China is a just like 1984 so therefore it is... all hail the mighty brain on V.Kemp

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22 Reply by The Yell (edited by Loth 02-Aug-2012 01:35:08)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Ah I see, (I love you all really)

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

Texas has changed a bit from 1985

still has the same attitude about capital punishment

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

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24 Reply by V. Kemp (edited by V. Kemp 01-Aug-2012 23:26:31)

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Re: I'm going to be an Olympian!

My point, Zarf BeebleBrix, is that there's nothing stopping the Chinese government from engaging in genocide as it sees fit. There is no check on its power. It's free to commit genocide if it finds it appropriate.

Needless to say, it wouldn't hesitate to do whatever was necessary to shut up anyone with knowledge of steroids. A few lives' imprisonment or death is nothing compared to the Chinese nation and Olympic team saving face. And absolutely nothing compels the Chinese government or its ruling Communist Party to admit having done anything or tell anybody about it.

As I said in the OP, it's possible she's legitimate. I've simply given reasons why China's authoritarian regime and past actions make it suspect under these circumstances.

We could easily blame the ruling aristocrats of the USA (which include Bush the younger) for Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq. What do you know, the meddling that happened in Vietnam was, in fact, an indicator of aggression to come. Thanks for backing up the notion that past actions show values and can often predict future actions.





You've disputed absolutely nothing I said, You_Fool. That the Chinese government hasn't been quite as atrocious to its own people (maybe they just learned to shut up) for a few years in no way contradicts a single thing I said. The Chinese government still has every right and ability to silence any of its people however it judges fit. It can't violate their legal rights because their legal rights are whatever it says they are.

This is in contrast with freer nations like the United States.

Your pointing out that China has been a little better at not running over unarmed civilians of late (or better at covering up such instances) isn't even a logical argument against my position that the Chinese government (as all authoritarian regimes do) has a far greater ability to stifle any investigation into violations of the requirements of the Olympics.

You're ad-hominem attacking me not in addition to a real argument, but in place of one. I can understand both. I'm a man; I won't cry like you are. But to cry without even making an argument is just silly.

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