"The newly released Chicago Crime Commission publication, "The Gang Book 2012", conveyed a startling statistic that Chicago has more gang members than any other city in the United States: 150,000 members[1] Traditionally Los Angeles County was considered the Gang Capital of America, with an estimated 120,000 (41,000 in the City) gang members[2]; Nevertheless, Chicago actually has a higher rate of gang membership per capita than Los Angeles; and also the state of Illinois has a higher rate of gang membership (8-11 gang members per 1,000 population) than California (5-7 gang members per 1,000 population).[3] There were at least 30,000 gangs and 800,000 gang members active across the USA in 2007.[4][5] About 900,000 gang members lived "within local communities across the country," and about 147,000 were in U.S. prisons or jails in 2009.[6] By 1999, Hispanics accounted for 47% of all gang members, Blacks 31%, Whites 13%, and Asians 6%.[7]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gang_population

And I give you the substantive argument that Belgium isn't California, you don't have our crime rate and don't have as much risk of personal injury in your own home as we do.

twosidedeath,

"honestly what the hell is this. at this point i would like to start name calling because this is rediculous that you think you have any idea what i believe."

It's funny because you didn't correct me.

"an economic collapse would immediately result in a collapse of a government. but would we all die or revert to a stone age? no the EU didnt result in this, it was simply a shift of power and laws. life went on."

I'm sorry, I must have missed the "economic collapse" that has gone on since the formation of the EU. And I'm the one being ridiculous, making you want to name-call?

"but what YOU need to do is learn to stay on a topic and actually debate something instead of creating a simpler topic that you can handle."

You seem upset. I was making the point that there is much more "need" than you admit if one actually takes defense of one-self and one's family/loved ones. Your previous arguments were predicated upon the notion that I will positively never need a semi-automatic rifle to defend myself or others, ever. You repeated:

"there is NO need for any kind of automatic guns, a pistol WILL kill someone and keep you safe. try to come back to reality sometime soon"

My statements were in direct response to this thinking. Okay, so you don't agree that my arguments are strong enough to share my conclusion. But that's no reason to cry like a baby. I was responding to exactly this sentiment which you said before and ironically repeated just after accusing me of being off-topic.

You know absolutely nothing about firearms or self-defense. A pistol WILL NOT protect individuals and others ideally in many conceivable situations. You're making things up.

TCO,

"i tried having a debate, but ran into a wall of staunchly defended slogans and oversimplifications. I even got reproached for a) using actual statistics"

The statistics you cited did not provide any evidence for what you claimed they showed. It was dishonest of you. It was insulting to everyone that you'd waste our time with such pointless garbage.

If this is lost on you, that's not anyone else's fault.

"and b) valuing anothers life more than my right to carry a lethal weapon."

Unless a weapon is required to protect yourself or others. Then your lack of a right to carry a lethal weapon is more important than others' lives.

Schniepel,

Didn't you see star-wars?

You need to know this about us evil, imperial, hateful Americans: Your jealousy only makes us stronger.

i'm pretty sure the Americans answered that survey in inches, which has caused great confusion in the results

It's rarely reported because it's at odds with what the majority of reporters and newscasters want to present.

When just the presence of a firearm is all that's required, it's often not reported to authorities at all, let alone news media.

So you're saying when people in your country are attacked, you give them your wallets, your jewelry, and your women?

Apparently you're unaware of this, but violent crimes happen in your country too. You're just not legally permitted to defend yourself. If your attacker is bigger stronger than you, tough luck.

Pretending Americans live in fear and your country is crime-free is just bullshit propaganda given to you to make you complacent about the fact that you have less rights than Americans. A massive gang problem resulting from welfare and drug use in certain urban centers spikes up America's crime rate. The vast majority of the country has a much lower crime rate than the national average. The vast majority of Americans don't go near these places, have virtually nothing to worry about, and feel as safe as you.

But you have educated opinions to share. You knew all of this. You just wanted to repeat the propaganda that has calmed you while your rights were taken away.

Your "nation of fear" claim is baseless.

The US has less fear. I'm safer because of the .45 under my arm. Everyone's safer because would-be criminals don't know who's carrying like me and who isn't.

All evidence concurs with this. Areas in the USA with stricter gun laws have more crime. Nations all over the globe (ie Australia, UK) experience increases in crime rates when they ban guns.

Why aren't you permitted to defend yourself? Because your nation is a nation of fear.

"Rights? What rights? Always this whining about 'rights' in the US. In the end you'll find perhaps a handfull of radicals to rise for their 'rights'."

We didn't have WWI on this side of the pond. Or WWII and the Holocaust. Our mass murderers are apolitical whack-jobs. Yours are politically motivated whack-jobs.

At least here you're honest about your anti-gun stance: You believe people are slaves to their states, to their political overlords. The rights and freedoms which are morally necessary and responsible for the greatest advances in standard of living in the history of mankind mean nothing to you. Any claim that man has inalienable rights you meet with derision, regardless of the philosophy behind it and undeniable real-world results.

I love all this talk as if mankind has intellectually progressed so much in the past half-century that firearms ownership is obviously unnecessary and harmful. People thought the exact same thing a hundred years ago. It was the modern age! Everyone was so enlightened--more than ever before! Horror and atrocities were things of the past. People were obviously too smart to ever repeat them!

And then they did. Worse than ever before in the history of mankind.

The notion that humanity itself shares some sort of intellectual heritage is a fraud. If you're not a science fiction writer looking for an easy device to supposedly explain irrational culture, please stop taking it seriously. The idea that human beings are magically different now than they were when democratic processes resulted in Hitler with dictatorial powers is baseless and ignorant.

The same thugs exist today. The same ignorant sheeple who give them votes do as well.