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Re: The truth about gun control

"Your government IS very corrupt. So I dunno what you are waiting for really. People having to have 2-3 jobs to coop with their lifes. It's a disgrace really. So use your guns and make the country a better place? Else you have no need for them..."

That's not really the government that's the Market.  If people had to work 2-3 jobs because of high taxes then it would be the government but as it stands right now it's just corporate America sticking it to the middle and lower classes.  Unfortunately this imbalance can't be solved with guns since that would just cause damage which would lead to companies charging even more.  The only reasonable way for it to be resolved is for people to stand up and say "I'm not going to pay this much for something I don't need."  If people are no longer willing to spend $200 on a pair of shoes companies will stop charging $200 for a pair of shoes.

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Re: The truth about gun control

Dragon, The United States Government is not nearly as corrupt as you say it is... well congress is mostly but that is just because the democrats have the majority.  The second Amendment was written by a group of people who had to fight for their freedom.  These men were very bright and didn't make the naive assumption that the establishment they started would remain true the principles laid down for it.  It will be truly corrupt when the government takes away the freedoms outlined by the founding fathers.  Thats why we have to maintain this right as it was originally intended in order to prevent the government from going down that road to corruption.  Not simply so that we can rise up and fight against it but to keep it from ever reaching that point of corruption. 

It doesnt even have to be "corrupt" to be against the principles of the founding fathers.  A communist Government would be against those principles, any totalitarian type government would be against those principles as well.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
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Re: The truth about gun control

What about the "terrorist act" or whatever it's called? That removed parts of your freedoms. Not anything to figth against?
And yea ofc the market is hard to fight with guns... you could fight it some other way ofc smile

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Re: The truth about gun control

Patriot act.

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

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Re: The truth about gun control

"i'm lovin'it" ?

till the end of time..

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Re: The truth about gun control

the patriot act has not removed any of our constitutional freedoms.

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Re: The truth about gun control

I will answer the 'uprising if the military supports an evil dictatorship' question.

Initially it will require surprise and 500,000 persons

Without surprise it would require approx 5-10 million persons since effectively we could 'cut their supply lines' anyhow as well as produce materials somewhere.

This is due to the high number of veterans in the nation, and their relevant skills.




However I will note that there can be no dictatorship or take over of our military in full. The highest proportion they could hope for is prolly 30-35% and to use that to try to negate via surprise the remainder. However that would ultimately fail, but could result in approx 500k soldier deaths and unknown (matters on tactics, risks taken, vigilantism, to many unponderables) numbers of civilians.

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Re: The truth about gun control

In todays armies its a lot harder to bring about an uprising against a gouverment. Since they have way better equimpent. And I do think today forgein gouverments solve the problem of corrupt gouverments like the west has done for many years now.

"the patriot act has not removed any of our constitutional freedoms."

The act expands the authority of US law enforcement agencies for the stated purpose of fighting terrorism in the United States and abroad. Among its provisions, the Act increases the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial and other records; eases restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expands the Secretary of the Treasury

Not many people know this, but I own the first radio in Springfield. Not much on the air then, just Edison reciting the alphabet over and over. "A" he'd say; then "B." "C" would usually follow...

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Re: The truth about gun control

"However I will note that there can be no dictatorship or take over of our military in full."

How do you figure?  The military answers to the President, if the President decides he wants to be a dictator why would he have a problem controlling the full military.  If you're relying on human decency I'm afraid you will be sorely disappointed.  All a dictator would have to do is convince the top ranking individuals of the various branches of the military.  Because you have to remember very rarely does a dictator arise through simply saying, "I'm a dictator."  More often than not it is subtle, it would start with things like the Patriot Act giving the government more authority too look into your personal activities.  Then just add a few more, and a few more, and a few more, until the government has official achieved Marshal Law.  Alternatively the government fabricates some threat, some catastrophe that allows them to impose Marshal Law "until the threat has been dealt with."  And with the top ranks of the military fully behind the Dictator it would be a simple matter to pass down orders and information that the threat still exists, and that certain measures are necessary.

I'm not saying there'd be no opposition from the ranks of the military but by the time people realize there is something that needs to be opposed it will be a simple matter to falsify evidence that any opposition is part of the "threat".

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35 Reply by Soth (edited by Soth 15-Jun-2008 20:22:04)

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Re: The truth about gun control

To Arocalex:  The Government has always been able to do that.  The patriot act simply speeds up the process.  Warrants or permission from a federal judge must still be obtained in order to search and seize any documentation or property.  The abilities and actions described in the Patriot Act are long-existing, crime-fighting, tools that the Government has upheld for decades now.  Also, under the act, the attorney General must fully inform congress as to the use of business records that have been obtained.  The Patriot act does not give the Government any more authority than it already had.  It is simply a counter terrorism provision.  The terrorism investigators hove no interest in the doings of ordinary Americans and cannot target them.  Their only interest is in domestic terrorists, which the Patriot Act defines as those whose conduct violates State or Federal law, endangering human life.

The Patriot Act also helps to provide for victims of terrorism, public safety, and their families.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
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                                          Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The truth about gun control

Um, and who are these "terrorists"? It can (and probably will) be used to any muslims in USA (no matter if they have lived there for centuries or not).

And if it didn't change anything then why did you need it? yikes

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Re: The truth about gun control

it s not only the poor lil ppl with that certain religion dragon agh, anyone looking/smelling/doing something "werid"or suspicious can be labelled as a possible terrorist, and off they go smile

that includes someone testing his farts on the ppl standing guard at somewhere important, or some kid on the train scratching his nose in a werid way, or someone claiming he fears for his life at an certain airport cuz he feels bad baaaaad vibezzzzzz

till the end of time..

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Re: The truth about gun control

> ☭ Fokker wrote:

> The figures went up because guns are still legal on the other side of an uncontrolled border, which is a criminals dream. We have the same problem in the UK thanks to Eire, Jersey and Guernsey.

guns in the UK are smuggled in mostly from Eastern Europe, despite being an island the UK borders are open to anyone & anything - FACT.

we've also seen a cultural shift with regards to weapons, yardies brought in the gun culture in the 1980s & recently its been Eastern Europeans muscling in thats also lead to an increase in gun crime. criminals have access to & readily use firearms- however murder rates are still well below the US since guns for you average person are still very difficult to get hold of.

Buddugoliaeth neu Marwolaeth

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Re: The truth about gun control

@ DPS....

The Military answers to the Constitution, and their Conscience.  Hitlers armies answered to the Furher, not the US Military.

@ Dragon
"who are these "terrorists"? It can (and probably will) be used to any muslims in USA (no matter if they have lived there for centuries or not). "

ROFL....you never seem to amaze me with your assumptions.   Tell me, do you think this stuff up all by yourself ??

"Lived there for centuries or not."   that is the final tail end of the entire unreal statement.........my God.


and to think.......he has a FAN in NEMEARA......... like wow !!!  who would have thunk ?? (not I)

more priceless quotes:
"not only the poor lil ppl with that certain religion dragon agh, anyone looking/smelling/doing something "werid"or suspicious can be labelled as a possible terrorist, and off they go "

no no....its not only that nutty...it contiues....

". . .or some kid on the train scratching his nose in a werid way, or someone claiming he fears for his life at an certain airport cuz he feels bad baaaaad vibezzzzzz"

Great..... or do we jest ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
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Re: The truth about gun control

"guns in the UK are smuggled in mostly from Eastern Europe, despite being an island the UK borders are open to anyone & anything - FACT.

we've also seen a cultural shift with regards to weapons, yardies brought in the gun culture in the 1980s & recently its been Eastern Europeans muscling in thats also lead to an increase in gun crime...."

That does not alter how they (the guns) get into the country: The Channel Islands and our friendly Irish neighbours.


"...criminals have access to & readily use firearms- however murder rates are still well below the US since guns for you average person are still very difficult to get hold of."

And the police are armed to the teeth.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: The truth about gun control

"The Military answers to the Constitution, and their Conscience."

The Constitution and their what?

As I said progress would be subtle, a rational and "necessary" transition to Marshall Law and extending it ad infinitum via consent of the top ranks of each branch of military.  If anyone opposes evidence is fabricated and they are arrested, convicted, and sentenced as per the law.  Slowly the government takes control of vital resources for "security" reasons, after all wouldn't want a terrorist getting chemical agents into the water or food, or screwing with the oil coming from refineries, or sneaking into and blowing up a nuclear power plant.  Hitler proved one thing, get people scared enough or angry enough and they'll gladly hand you anything you ask for.  By the time anyone catches on that the threat is false, unless the Dictator's incompetent, the Government will have control of so many vital resources that no one can afford to threaten them.  How hard are you going to fight someone who can cut off your water, power, heat?

As for your remark about Hitler keep in mind Germany's Democracy wasn't all that different from yours, there were checks put in place to keep anyone from abusing power but through enacting "necessary" measures Hitler was able to take control.

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Re: The truth about gun control

Black_Wing you can laugh all you want, but I know that's how it works. In my own country it started like that as well. We have a little part of your "patriot act" as well, and the only ones that got hit by this is muslims so far. And the only thing any of them (the few that got charged with their "crimes") had done was to send money to their relatives in the countries where they came from. This was labeled "sending money to terrorists".

It's like during the cold war BW (if you have any recollection of that) when people could say "my neighbour is a comi!" to get him/her arrested (with no proof). This is the same. No proof needed to take someone in, and no courts needed to send him/her to jail or our of the country.

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Re: The truth about gun control

>>And the only thing any of them (the few that got charged with their "crimes") had done was to send money to their relatives in the countries where they came from. This was labeled "sending money to terrorists".<<

I think you are seriously confused.  Very few people got charged, many more had bank accounts closed.  And in Minneapolis which has about 60,000 Somali immigrants, one of the wire services operating to Somalia paid Al Qaeda $0.08 on every dollar wired out of America, so the FBI had every reason to slam that down.

>>It's like during the cold war BW (if you have any recollection of that) when people could say "my neighbour is a comi!" to get him/her arrested (with no proof). This is the same. No proof needed to take someone in, and no courts needed to send him/her to jail or our of the country.<<

No, that was the Red Scare of 1920 which also followed terror attacks, the Wall Street bombing and the attempted murder of a Secretary of State by two unknown men (their bomb went off while they were planting it on the porch and all we know about them is there were two of them by the number of arms recovered from the neighborhood)

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Re: The truth about gun control

*passes around the popcorn

mebbe we should tak it to another thread bout that act, this is supposed to be about gun control ;p


and bw, clearly you missed my point/intention smile
dragon, i think other ppl might not have been in the news or something, i think saying they only target muslims is a bit off, also try and imagine why they would make such a suspect pool smile and what ppl would say when they were about to get caught or questioned

till the end of time..

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Re: The truth about gun control

Any attempt to squelch the lower military personnel will lead to reduction of the total effective force as well as agents in place and ready to switch sides units. Ergo your 'scenario' still has no meaning.

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Re: The truth about gun control

I think Flint over-estimates the independance of the average soldier.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

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Re: The truth about gun control

Lets see... who here were soldiers?

BW, Einstein, DevilDog... and we are all of the same mind on this...

I wonder who is mistaking the abilities of the US soldier.

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Re: The truth about gun control

"Any attempt to squelch the lower military personnel will lead to reduction of the total effective force as well as agents in place and ready to switch sides units."

I'm not talking about anything overt or sudden.  I'm talking about using false information to give soldiers reasonable orders that increase the level of government control over the populace through the strength of the military, and adding on a few more orders, and a few more, all of which will seem perfectly reasonable and necessary based on the information they are given.  I'm talking about a dictator controlling the military by controlling the information that filters down the ranks.

I have no doubt if someone tried saying, "ok we're going to form a police state now," that the vast number of soldiers would say, "Screw that." but I'm talking about soldiers being told that because of threat x action y, while unpleasant, is necessary for the security of the nation.  This scenario does not hinge on the morality of soldiers it hinges on the inattentiveness of people, it hinges on the principle that if you throw a frog in boiling water it will jump out but if you put a frog in water and slowly raise the temperature it will not notice and make no move to escape.

Here's a simpler example: gas prices.  In a little over a decade gas prices where I live have doubled.  in 97 gas was 60 cents/litre it is now averaging about 1.20/litre.  There was no objection, no outrage, no one saying "You're gouging us." until we realized how much it had changed.  Because it rose slowly a few cents this week, a few the next, on and on until we got to the point we are at now.  People will ignore and dismiss small changes for a long time before they realize how those small changes have added up to a very big change.

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Re: The truth about gun control

8 years to try to do this? Not possible. Especially not in this nation.

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Re: The truth about gun control

"8 years to try to do this? Not possible. Especially not in this nation."

I dunno a few high casualty "terrorist" attacks on US  soil, a few "terrorists" captured while trying to put chemical agents into the drinking water of a high profile city like New York or LA I think you could get it done.  Maybe even engineer a successful chemical attack on a small town really get the fear going.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

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