Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

In the United States if you become the victim of a law you are entitled to challenge the Constitutionality of the law and seek damages if you prevail.

Sadly to often what happens is a law is made and some agency uses it to threaten and harass prior to using it which has the effect of causing damage prior to the first 'actual' victim.

So to stop this I propose the following Statute.



Any laws made after the start of the Statute may be challenged by people who can argue it could be concievably used against them. If the number suing merit a class action lawsuit is to be triggered. For laws prior to the date placed in effect then a two year period exists for those who wish to file suit against the law and who could argue it could be con cievably used against them.


This would give a large sum of people the equivalent of 'standing' in the eyes of the court.

Now under this Statute the only damages that can be sought are for legal costs, since no one is a victim as of yet.

I would give it one year prior to enactment so States, Cities, Counties, the Federal Government and other Government entities could review their books and remove 'unenforcable laws' and to examine the laws they have on the books for flaws.


I forsee a lot less issues with agencies threatening doom, Governments passing unenforcable laws, and a lot of lawsuits prior to enactment of a crap law.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

You sound like a character in Atlas Shrugged.

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

it already takes 1 year to go to trial on a federal lawsuit

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

How about we stop it by electing people who don't appoint corrupt retards to run agencies? And hold them accountable for what they allow to go on under their watch?

Typical big-government commie, wanting more laws and regulations to solve everything.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

one law to rule them all

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Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

I say we take unemployed people and make them federal judges and assign them to people like case workers so you get immediate hearing. Salary = to unemployment benefit.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

7 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 04-Jun-2012 17:47:41)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

[Bad language is bad]

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sdffdgjfhjdfhgjhsfsdfqgsbsthzgflqkcgjhkgfjnbkmzghkmqrghqmskdghqkmsghnvhdf
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Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

I disagree. Your subjective judgement of "bad" language insults us, the readers of the forum.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

9 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 05-Jun-2012 03:45:57)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

OMG!  I just realized that Flint got called both a crazy libertarian and a crazy big government guy within 2 posts of one another in reply to the exact same post.  I always love when that happens.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

10 (edited by V.Kemp 05-Jun-2012 06:27:16)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Mace has been a fail troll for years. I agree that it should be funny, but I think that this trolling and intellectually lacking drivel reduces the humor.

He's proposing more laws and lawsuits to protect us from appointees of our elected officials. The election process is too hard to produce results, so let's bring in more trail lawyers to help? That's not a libertarian position. It is a proposed method for challenging Constitutionality sooner, but there are already methods in place for that. And quality is far more important than quantity. That it regards questions of Constitutionality is not sufficient to make it a Libertarian position.

Just look at the abuses such a law would encourage--and it would be dealing primarily with the theoretical, rather than what's actually happened. Like everyone alleging voter ID laws discriminate against minorities--despite the fact that everywhere they've been enacted, minority voter participation has increased. The morons we elect and the morons on our courts are often incapable of dealing with facts. Tasking them with dealing with theoretical predictions is just retarded.

Fail suggestion. You can't make up for electing morons with more laws and trail lawyers. And fail trolling, Mace has occasionally shared his ignorant thoughts for years. Like Einstein, there's no discussion, no responses to/refutations of others' arguments, no debate. And fail troll encouragement, claiming (almost legitimately, I grant you) humor at the irony of the troll's post in relation to mine!

I hate you guys.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

smile

~*✠ ]PW[ Forever ✠*~

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Zarf what the fail libertarian troll fails to realize is this would remove thousands of laws, ordinances, regulations and statutes from the law books before it took effect for fear of lawsuits nailing those stupid laws (like the "oh boy" law in one city or the idle laws designed to stop semi trucks from idling whichbendanger lives of the ignorant that those laws are unenforcable).

For once in a hundred years politicians would scramble to reduce the number of laws in our nation. And maybe with a bit of fear of the implications if they did not.


Chris hit the only good objection on the head... the courts would swell like a libertarian fed five times the dose of fiber one bars and then given a Thanksgiving Feast.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

13 (edited by V.Kemp 05-Jun-2012 14:49:33)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

How would this remove thousands of laws?

They're all laws which would eventually take effect. They're all laws which could then be challenged at that time.

How would this cause anyone to scramble to remove laws on the books? Laws on the books can already be challenged.

Yet ANOTHER non sequitur fallacy in action! You're an adult. Jesus Christ, think before you speak, let alone go on a crusade. What you're posting doesn't even make any sense.

Lawmakers are going to rush to revoke laws on the books (which can already be challenged) because of a statute which allows laws to be challenged before they're enacted? Hahahahha that's stupid! Good joke! I hope you were joking, right? Because that doesn't make any god damn sense. A child would be confused by how anyone could be dumb enough to think one follows the other.

Try harder. I'm bored.

And for a list of things you've ignored, because you really do seem that childish and oblivious:
1) What about the fact that we can already elect people with the agenda to reform such laws and agency overreaches? The people aren't good enough voters, they need more laws and trial lawyers to protect them? We're not a litigious enough society already?

You offer no comment.

2) What about the fact that this tasks courts with judging the theoretical, what might happen? Aren't they bad enough at making decisions of law based on facts? You want to give courts (and trial lawyers) even more power, to influence legislation based on predictions and not facts?

You offer no comment.

These questions make me a troll? They're illegitimate, but the ability to explain why magically escapes you.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

14 (edited by Justinian I 05-Jun-2012 15:37:20)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

I don't understand the point of the opening post. While agencies harass citizens from time to time, you can fight an agency in court after you have exhausted all options of arbitration with that agency. The problem is ignorance and a lack of transparency.

Also, agencies must receive feedback from the relevant parties before they implement a law by publishing them in the federal register. Therefore, parties who would be negatively affected by a law proposed by an agency are warned before it is ever implemented, and have the opportunity to offer their suggestions.

15 (edited by Einstein 05-Jun-2012 17:31:26)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Justinian there is a legal term called 'Standing'.

An example of Legal Standing is that you cannot yet sue the Obamacare Law if you in fact felt it would harm you. This is because, despite Universities ending coverage, despite increases in healthcare costs, despite tons of Federal money being spent, despite exemptions for favored people, and despite other issues you lack standing.

This standing burden is huge, it means that if they put a chemical plant next to you, waive all environmental checks despite evidence it will leak hazardous chemicals into your property you have no standing until the chemicals do come into your property. If my law happens you could sue with the knowledge it will happen thus stopping that Government Chemical plant from having that faulty equipment.

As a truck driver I know at least a dozen States with 'Anti-Idle Laws'. These laws tell me I cannot idle my truck (leave the engine running) when parked.

Some area's I have parked in have been as low as -15 degrees Faranheit. Some have been as high as 125 degrees. A semi truck parked in 75 degree weather with the sun unobscured can reach 115 degrees in less than 30 minutes a truck in 10 degree weather with the engine off will be unable to start the engine

As a driver I know these facts. I also know I have a undiagnosed body temperature regulating problem where I can sweat in a cooler and shiver in heat. I need a near costant temperature of 65 degrees to help best regulate my body temperature..

Many truck drivers are terrified of the law without knowing it is unenforcible. Enough police have pointed out the flaws and enough lawyers have inside the DA's office. However many truck drivers still do not know that.

If I had my way I could sue over this and end these laws (or get them rewritten so as to not be a life/safety issue). However I have no Standing. If California tickets me I can then sue California. But not the other States. I literally need a ticket in every State to end these laws.

This proposal would mean I could sue them all, and all at once, and end this horrible law which is currently causing pain and suffering for drivers.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

"If my law happens you could sue with the knowledge it will happen thus stopping that Government Chemical plant from having that faulty equipment."

And go absolutely [clucking] crazy suing everyone for things that might happen _if_ they did literally anything differently/wrong. Trial lawyers would love it, because you wouldn't need any basis in fact. You could just imagine something and sue!

Which is why your proposal is absolutely ridiculous. And you are, as always, ignoring posts which tear you a new one. Good luck in politics. Stick to those talking points.

Please explain to us how an unenforceable (that's how it's spelled) law is causing you such grief and hardship.

How is proposing new legislation easier/preferable to electing non morons into office, who will repeal dumb laws and remove moron appointees to make dumb regulations? It's a hell of a lot cheaper and less demanding of private citizens (both in terms of time and money).

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Flint,

So you mean parties should be allowed to sue over a policy because it might theoretically damage them? If that's what you mean, then I'm behind it. Other countries follow that policy, and it works fine.

Kemp,

Obviously, you could only sue to terminate a practice because it would theoretically harm you, but not to receive damages.

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

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Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Would one of our three legal beagles please educate the poor troll?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

Justinian I,

That opens the doors to all manners of politically motivated challenges.

There's a reason the law requires real damages, because tasking the courts with judging the theoretical is retarded. This seems lost on you and Einstein. You have a lot more faith in the system than I do. Suck on that government tit.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

21 (edited by BeoWolfe 06-Jun-2012 20:23:31)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

.... I have to agree with Kemp.

You mention Obamacare which has caused much damage but hasn't been implement yet.... what happens when the shoe is on the other foot.  Say a Governor of Wisconsin wants to cut union fat so he wants to cut benefits by 5%.  A cut in benefits makes people unmotivated, angry or even depressed - this immotional response could lead some to drinking problems, some who are currently living beyond there means could lose there house, some might even commit suicide or turn to crime to make up the difference.  The definition of you law means all union members in Wisconsin could sue saying that millions of people might kill themselves or any other doom and groom scenerio therefore the law can not be.

Not all laws are equally helpful, some are harmful.  Any proposed tax hike has negative impacts on those taxed - ergo those taxed could sue - hence no one would pay taxes.  On the other side of the coin, if the government cuts spending - those departments who have budget cut could show how the cut damages them - hence they could sue.....


To put it in IC terms without nw attack rules... I farm small people, IC makes a rule "You can't farm people under 35% of your NW".  I sue and show that by not allowing me to farm, my banker doesn't give me enough aid - therefore I can show fact that this rule is hurting me.  Does this make the rule bad?  Should I be allowed to sue/argue?  Don't we elect people to govern to make the decisions for the greater good because as individuals not every one will agree?


To trail back to Obamacare.... there is a solution to bad laws - its called elections.  We vote the right people into office in November than ObamaCare could go away.

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

No suicide is not a cause to sue, but lost wages, lost employment, benefits might be. Emotional harm over a balanced budget is by far no means, nor is a State being forced to cut back due to financial reality.

But if the court agree's that in X amount of time the law is likely to affect you and it would normally grant a hearing when it did affect you, then you get a hearing.


States adjust employment levels frequently and people lose their jobs. The courts have deemed that is a Sovereign right and they cannot be sued over it. However say if the State makes you salaried and reduces your pay (without advance notice) you may have a claim.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

A few other points.... all laws are damaging someone.  People do things that benefit them - when enough people dislike it -  A law is born.  An argument can be made that there is benefits to murder.  Tell me the world wouldn't be a better place if the cast of Jersey Shore wasn't placed in front of a firing squad?  Theoretically my daughter could watch that show and grow up acting like Snookie - that justifies me shooting Snookie - ergo by making murder illegal you are damaging me.

I agree - ridiculous example.  But the premise is true - most all laws could be shown to damage someone.

"No suicide is not a cause to sue, but lost wages, lost employment, benefits might be. Emotional harm over a balanced budget is by far no means, nor is a State being forced to cut back due to financial reality."

You can sue for anything.  I can sue my neighbor because I think his cat is dumb.  If your law was enacted I can show that Obamacare has f-ed me over due to what I now pay in medical insurance is jumping.  So.... tomorrow millions of citizens fill out a form to sue and hand it to the county clerk and some judge has to thumb though all those and sort out the "dumb cat" law suits from the "poisions being dumped in my back yard" from the "Obamacare" ones?  I can only imagine how long it will be before my court date, further more what happens if the first person who sues is an idiot and loses.... does the rest get thrown out or do millions of people each get a trail?   

And yet another point.... even with existing laws when you can show damage - it doesn't mean dick.  Take the "idle law" you mentioned.  If you get a ticket for breaking it or if your truck breaks down because of it.... the judge doesn't care.  A law is a law.  Being able to show damage prior to it being made a law doesn't take the power away from local, state or federal officals from making and inacting laws.



You petition to overturn dumb laws.  You elect people who you believe will make the lease-dumb laws.  If a dumb law comes up for a vote, you show up at that townhall or you call your congressman.

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

The problem is bad laws sit on books due to public idiocy, and no way will they go away unless Conservatives control 60% of every Government and for at least three election cycles (so the Dems don't just reenact the stupid crap again).

I pray for an idle ticket just so I can rape over a State on the law because I know there are people ignorant about it. Yes I seek a ticket but cannot get one! Even becoming a politician I can only do so much.

This law would be more helpful beyond any single law imaginable. This one law would change the whole story, this one law would end thousands of laws prior to the first lawsuit.

It would mean a lot less extremism, dancing to the public winds, and ignoring old crap on the books. For example any anti homosexual laws, racism laws, and sexist laws on books could be challenged and REMOVED even if not used or enforced. Censorship? Gone.

Obamacare could have been challenged by Chris (his dream to not pay taxes when it starts) without billions being spent.


It would literally, without needing to educate the public on EVERYTHING, make politicians willing to stand up and say that would be illegal we need to do something else.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Proposed Law: Pre-Standing

screw you! the cost is part of it X(

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.