Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Volume of the Earth (complete volume...including atmosphere, core, everything) is 1,083,210,000,000km3

If you were to have 100 trillion people on the Earth, each person would have only 0.0108321km3 to live...this does not include any structures, transportation, leisurely areas, etc, but simply the amount of space that people can oppucy. My current bedroom is about 160m3 (an estimate, 4m*4m*10m), so in this world I would be forced to live in a room smaller than I am now.../sarcasm yeah, better world indeed! /endsarcasm

Whether you want to look at the resources available, or even just the ACTUAL AVAILABLE SPACE, the Earth can only support so many people. I mean, what happens when there is not enough space? You can't just keep saying that we are going to keep building up or down, because both have limited space also. You can say space colonisation, but again, that doesn't solve the problem that Earth has a limited space and in fact even supports the notion that Earth has limited space. Keep coming up with your conspiracy theories, but that is all they will be, conspiracy theories...anyway, I am out. I am not going to get into another back and forth, because I have only done the math of the situation and unless you are going to argue figures, there is nothing you can argue about it...

PS. Good work on the shunning Flint, you entered into a back and forth renaming all sorts of sayings...well done

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~

27 (edited by xeno syndicated 03-Jun-2012 00:54:34)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Wornstrum, figure I found on volume of Earth is: 1,097,509,500,000,000,000,000 cubic meters

So if we take this figure and divide by number of people:

10,000,000,000,000 / 1,097,509,500,000,000,000,000

We cancel out some zeroes:

and get 1 / 109,750,950 cubic meters

I think your mistake, wornstrum, is that there are a billion cubic meters per cubic kilometer (at least I think it is a billion - I'm not a math guy, as you know)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

those 3 levels you speak of are ways to change our consumer patterns by planning our infrastructure more wisely.
however they are unrealistic  in our world, as to build these we'd have to destroy a lot of infrastructure first. And, who is going to pay for this new infrastructure?

Hence the idea that with our CURRENT levels of consumption, our world wont be able to support our population.

And it is irrealistic to believe that our levels of consumption will change drastically for the better, hence to balance things out it'd be easier to change our population size by reversing population growth from positive to negative leves. THAT is the basis of Malthusianism.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

> ~Wornstrum~ wrote:

> Volume of the Earth (complete volume...including atmosphere, core, everything) is 1,083,210,000,000km3




> xeno syndicated wrote:

> Wornstrum, figure I found on volume of Earth is: 1,097,509,500,000,000,000,000 cubic meters

Where did you get your figure from?




There's not actually much disparity here between you two.  Why?

Worny is using cubic kilometers.  Xeno is using cubic meters.  1 cubic kilometer = 1 000 000 000 cubic meters.  So you're arguing over what is a 1% difference in the size of the Earth which is significant, but big enough for one to spot the other.


It's sad when an American is the one that notes this about the metric system.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

lmao! nice burn zarfy big_smile

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Zarf,

There is a lot od disparity:

I calculate for each of 10 trillion people on Earth, there is 109,750,950 cubic meters of space for them.  Wornstrum was talking about having a smaller bedroom than he has now.  Unless his room is 109,750,950 cubic meters in size, I think he's messed up his math somewhere.

32 (edited by RisingDown 03-Jun-2012 01:27:49)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

It is not realistic to use the earth's entire volume in these calculations. There's only a certain depth in the ground that humans can reach to inhabit or use for transport etc. Any deeper and you reach molten rock and metals and your body starts to melt, not to mention the extreme pressure and lack of oxygen you have to face.
Next there's the problem of reaching deep depths in water. Here the water pressure will simply make your construction implode.

Aside from that, Wornstrum's and your, xeno, numbers included the atmosphere. I'm pretty sure we will not be able to effectively and efficiently make use of any layer in the atmosphere above the troposphere, not for production of energy using solar panels (subsequent layers all the way down to earth would interfere with each other's efficience), let alone for residence (oxygen levels too low, UV levels too high, etc.)

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Your number: Amount of cubic meters per person at 10 trillion people

109,750,950



Wornstrum's numbers:
First of all, note he specifically says his number is based on 100 trillion people living there, not 10 trillion.

Then, his volume per person is 0.0108321km3

First, by reducing this number to a 10 trillion calculation, you end up with 0.108321km3 per person.

Then, converting this to m3, you get... 108,321,000m3


You: 109,750,950m3
Worny: 108,321,000m3

Yes... you are the 1%.

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Math or no math, overpopulation is a relevant issue.

Easy solution : Introduce cannibalism to overpopulated areas ; Solve overpopulation and hunger in the same strike. Also, lock the borders of the overpopulated areas. Problem fixes itself. Unhuman? Are their current living conditions human ?

But looking away from my easy fairytale solution, how to deal with overpopulation will never be increased government control. Which would be needed to arrange a smart three layer structuring to how we organizeour world. Fact 1. We're all different quirky individuals. Fact 2. Some of us like to live on this planet. By these two alone one will find it difficult to convince -everyone- to move into same area(layer) in equally spaced living-zones. This by fact 3. We will always consider some people to have less value than ourselves.

Call me an egotistical maniac sure, but you will pay 1 milllion dollars to the guys who kidnaps your sister. You will not pay that amount for the release of a random kiddierapist. Just saying.

So how then to combat overpopulation sensibly ? We don't really have that many options.

1. Decrease population

2. Increase area that can sustain life

Both have ups and downs, and certainly both will have humanitarians tearing their hair off in frustration over risks taken and borders crossed, but is it right for humanity to perish because we're to humanitarian to save humanity ?

I'll leave you with that non-sesical question for now.

.::: ______This is my world now_____ :::.
.:::_____D____A____M____O____N_____:::.
~Fight for your freedom or die enslaved~
~Lemming, Fft, Blue Wing, Viking, Nomad~

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

I mean we'll never know as we'll not reach 20 billion in my life and likely never will. However its true all our cities are on the best farmland. We could live subterranean but humans live for beauty. An optimally populated and resourced Earth may support vast numbers. But who can make it so? A Stalin?

36 (edited by xeno syndicated 03-Jun-2012 18:05:47)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

"we'll not reach 20 billion in my life and likely never will"

We could reach 10 billion by 2040 if we keep on our current neo-malthusian projection where pop growth is dramatically limited by artificial induced scarcity of opportunities for the fulfillment of basic human needs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World-Population-1800-2100.png

But what if the problem of scarcity of the opportunity for the fulfillment of basic human needs were suddenly solved?  Additive manufacturing processes and A.I. have the potential to do this today.  We made fiscal injections into a banking system which will waste the money on inefficiencies inherent in their antiquated processes, their own bonuses, etc., essentially propping up a system that should've been left to fail.  We might otherwise have been able to solve the problem of scarcity of opportunity for the fulfillment of basic human needs by instead injecting the same amount of capital into automation of distribution infrastructure, resource extraction, and additive manufacturing processes.

The photo I linked to in previous post in this thread as well as these concept drawings express somewhat the vision I have for how humans could live sustainably:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zAIP3HGWUFE/T0BuR1xlNkI/AAAAAAAABqQ/YqIm0FiJjsQ/s1600/Vertical+Cities.jpg

http://ynotwhy.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/sgdk6z8s91g5hppn.jpg

http://www.livegreenblog.com/media/photos/38/6604/Flat_Tower_1_lvgmain.jpg

My vision is a combination of the 3 concept drawings above.  Pre-fabricated living units produced with automated additive manufacturing processes (technology that we have today), would be attached to a honey-comb lattice-work dome-apparatus, which is essentially one huge solar array constructed above agricultural land.  Each section of the lattice to which the living units would be attached would themselves each produce food, too.  Each section of the lattice would have to give leeway to and yet also support each other adjacent section.  This would allow the entire dome to mitigate effects of any tectonic shifts.  In this way, there's virtually no limit to the size of the dome that could be attached to the Earth.  Each section of the lattice (just like each living unit) could be detached and replaced as necessary.  Sections would be aerodynamic in form, so as to reduce effects of wind, produce lift so as to reduce load on adjacent sections, and so as to more easily transported by air.

The scale of these domes could be enormous, with diameters of hundreds of kilometers, each section designed with ultra-light-weight materials and design (current automated additive manufacturing technology can accomplish this). The living units and the sections of the domes' latices, would be mirrored on ground facing surfaces and would be solar arrays on sky-facing surfaces.  The mirrored surfaces would produce an albedo effect to redirect sunlight back towards the surface, creating a greenhouse effect on the land beneath.  This would create a low-pressure zone within the dome where heat updrafts would help to further diminish load.  As such, these "living arrays" could more or less float above the landscape without dispensing much load at all to the surface.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

In the upper atmosphere, we could have similar living arrays floating along in the jet streams, tethered to orbital solar arrays, space stations, etc.  This is all doable with current technology, yet we continue to commit genocide on the unborn by the way we currently choose to live:

Currently, the wealthy use prime agricultural land to build suburban sprawl of gated communities and golf-courses, drive SUVs and muscles cars, the middle class increasingly live in box apartments in cramped, polluted, noisy urban areas; our poor live in slums on the 'other' side of town.

@rising down

re "to build these we'd have to destroy a lot of infrastructure first."

What I am suggesting would build over our current infrastructure - we wouldn't have to deconstruct anything.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

In no way could mid-/low class housing support any such structures being built on top of it, lol.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Xeno your insane..

You talk about future as though we are at the point we have uber technology to do almost any task...
If thats the case - Why would we be on earth still?

We surely would have mastered space flight - and have colonies all over the galaxy...
Assuming that - why whould we bother to fit 10 or even 100 bloody trillion on one planet?

- HUMI FOR MOD!!!

40 (edited by xeno syndicated 03-Jun-2012 23:19:20)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

"In no way could mid-/low class housing support any such structures being built on top of it, lol."

You're not understanding what I am suggesting.  The honey-comb dome structures 200km in diameter would not be attached to our cities.  They would be build over our cities, not on top of them.

"we are at the point we have uber technology to do almost any task"

We are.  We just don't utilize it.  There's virtually no political will to allow humanity to implement a better way of living; there is plenty of political will, however, to pump trillions of dollars of fake money into the economy vis a vis trickle-down economics so as to prop up an inherently unethical system.