Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Is there a hidden agenda by neo-malthusianists in control of western economies to manipulate the ratio of the cost of basic needs and the cost of raising children? 

Or is it just the the free market at work?


At this point, due to having seen what are clearly significant manipulations of economies by governments and corporations, I, personally, doubt there is much of a free market at play anymore.


And if there is no free market at play, who is in control of the economy / economies?  And do they have a neo-malthusian agenda?  Are they in favor of curbing population growth?  Do they in fact act to curb population growth?  If so, what is their ultimate aim exactly? What sorts of people does their plan permit to raise many children and what sorts of people does their plan not permit to raise children? Is it really much of a leap, considering countries have tried it before, that there is some sort of eugenics plan in progress?

Does anyone even know what their political representatives' stance is on neo-malthusianism?

Einstein.  What is your view on neo-malthusianism?

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

if this were true, it's not working properly.

I'm assuming you'd want to breed as many upper class/higher middle class people, the people who rule, innovate, and generally make lots of money.
In practice however, the ones on the social ladder who are per person on average having the most children, are those in the lower/lower middle classes.
Malthus's ideas included restricting marriage from people suffering poverty or defects; his ideas were clearly aimed at reducing the population of the lower social classes.

How would you explain this phenomenon?


As a sidenote, I must say I agree with the fundaments of Malthusianism (not saying I agree with all sides to it). Malthusianism (and neo-malthusianism) are based on the idea that at one point in time, our population growth will have become too big for the amount of resources we have to support us (although I disagree in several of the tactics they would use to lower the population). In fact, I believe this is already happening: for example areas in Africa suffering starvation due to all their food being used in richer countries/amongst the rich or due to their land being used for different purposes than agriculture. This could  be an example of the "positive checks" Malthus proposed,that would lead to the Malthusian catastrophe, restoring human population to supportable amounts.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

3 (edited by xeno syndicated 01-Jun-2012 17:18:03)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Rising Down,

Personally, I feel there is as much evidential basis for the possibility of a future Malthusian catastrophe as there is for the existence of the tooth-fairy.  Same could be said of the existence of the free market.

Although in the world as a whole, yes, the poor tend to have more children than the middle class / wealthy.  But the trend is for lower birth rates in higher GDP per capita countries:

Fertility rates correlated with GDP per capita:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TFR_vs_PPP_2009.svg

The danger I see is that the free market isn't determining the ratio of cost of living to cost of raising children in developed countries, but rather that this ratio is influenced by managers of the economy for the purpose of keeping population growth levels down.

Why doesn't it work in underdeveloped / developing countries with low GDP per capita?  My theory is that this is ultimately a result of there being no manipulation of their ratio of cost of living to cost of raising children, as governments of 'developing' countries simply don't have the same level of control over their economies that developed countries do.


Re: Mathus's theory.

It is simply a justification for excessive greed and hoarding of wealth by the elite.  It pervades the notion that it is a good thing that the economy is controlled so as to siphon wealth out of the hands of the majority / raise the cost of fulfilling basic needs to the extent that they can't afford to have children.  It keeps population growth in check.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

there is every reason to think the rising cost of having kids has more to do with the lower levels of society demanding more money for the same job their great-grandparents did, in order to obtain a better lifestyle, than to blame a cabal of the 1%

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

> The Yell wrote:

> there is every reason to think the rising cost of having kids has more to do with the lower levels of society demanding more money for the same job their great-grandparents did, in order to obtain a better lifestyle, than to blame a cabal of the 1%

I'd rephrase as such:

There is every reason to think the rising cost of having kids has more to do with a higher cost of fulfilling basic human needs relative to that of their great-grandparents' generation.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

No that's just restating it.

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

> The Yell wrote:

> No that's just restating it.

Okay, well, then we differ only insofar as the cause of this rising cost of fulfilling basic needs, then.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

the act of producing and delivering basic needs is something peopel charge for according to their expectations

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

basic needs do not include college education Chris X(

Now who is headed to the left!

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

who mentioned college?

The core joke of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is that of course no civilization would develop personal computers with instant remote database recovery, and then waste this technology to find good drinks.
Steve Jobs has ruined this joke.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Well Xeno posited the college part and you did not challenge it so I presumed this meant you included it tongue


Damned Liberals tongue

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

"Xeno posited the college part"

I did not.

13 (edited by xeno syndicated 02-Jun-2012 02:15:30)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

If a massacre of a hundred people in Syria is considered a crime against humanity, what are the effects of the subversion of free market to be called?

When governments manipulate the economies / conduct trade wars / currency wars, and the result is an increase in the relative cost of fulfilling basic human needs, humanity loses millions lives, perhaps even billions of people: those who would otherwise have been born had it been CHEAPER to fulfill basic human needs.

If the loss of 100 lives in a campaign by Syrian authorities is a crime against humanity, what shall we call the loss of perhaps the billions of lives who have never had a chance to live due to the economic policies of governments?

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Words from the Human Rights Council:

"Navi Pillay's representative: "Those who order, help or fail to stop attacks on civilians are individually criminally liable for their actions"

LOL

Let's rephrase this, shall we:

"Those who order, help, or fail to stop relative increases in cost of fulfilling basic human needs are individually criminal for their actions."

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Xeno one reply:

"Those who take anothers possessions are guilty of theft, if over $1000 then they are guilty of grand theft".

Becomes:

"Those who advocate taking others possessions for the welfare of society are guilty of theft or grand theft"

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

16 (edited by xeno syndicated 02-Jun-2012 03:49:30)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

"Those who advocate taking others possessions for the welfare of society are guilty of theft or grand theft"

Rephrase again:

"Those who conspire to undermine the universal, inalienable, fundamental human rights to the pursuit of liberty, economic opportunity, and happiness; those whose manipulations of the economy profit by perpetually frustrating the majority of humanity in these their aforementioned rightful pursuits; those who by the frustration of these pursuits derive profits, and those who by their mere complicity 'help' or 'fail to stop' the frustration of these pursuits, shall deemed guilty of..., what?"

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

You're a criminal, goto jail

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

18 (edited by xeno syndicated 02-Jun-2012 04:09:31)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

> Einstein wrote:

> You're a criminal, goto jail

No, Einstein,

The criminals are those who profit from, order, or otherwise fail to stop the frustration of the pursuit of the fulfillment of basic human needs; they are guilty of genocide against the billions of human beings who would otherwise have been born had the pursuit of the fulfillment of basic human needs not been so frustrated.

19 (edited by Justinian I 02-Jun-2012 05:11:33)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Xeno,

Life is a zero sum game. Some people play to win.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

> Justinian I wrote:

> Xeno,

Life is a zero sum game. Some people play to win.

5000 years from now, our descendants will look back on our era with contempt. For theirs will be an era where all basic human needs are fulfilled, for all 500 trillion of them.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

Hint for the troll: People already look at you and other communists with contempt

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

He's talking about self-replicating robot technology from aliens! It's so keyuuuute.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

The world can support maybe 20 billion humans. But we'll never know.

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

xeno, you still haven't adressed the the idea that at one point in time, our population growth will have become too big for the amount of resources we have to support us.

According to research done in request of the WWF, with population growth rates and worldwide consumption per capita staying the same, in 2050 we'd need almost 3 earths to provide for our consumption.

Of course one could doubt this research to be unbiased (as it was requested by an organization with a stake in bad results), but still I think it corrolates with other scientific publications that show that our earth alone will not be able to keep up with our consumption patterns.

Maar doodslaan deed hij niet, want tussen droom en daad,
Staan wetten in de weg en praktische bezwaren,
En ook weemoedigheid, die niemand kan verklaren,
En die des avonds komt, wanneer men slapen gaat.

25 (edited by xeno syndicated 02-Jun-2012 17:53:43)

Re: Secret agenda of neo-malthusian eugenics?

"According to research done in request of the WWF, with population growth rates and worldwide consumption per capita staying the same, in 2050 we'd need almost 3 earths to provide for our consumption."

"The world can support maybe 20 billion humans. But we'll never know."

In 5000 years, our planet will probably support 500 Trillion humans (if we don't destroy ourselves first).  With our current level of technology, we could probably support 10 trillion humans today, at least a thousand times what we have today, without any negative impact on other species if we lived this way:

3 levels:
above ground: solar panels / residential
ground: ecosystem
underground: transport / commercial / industrial

photo:
http://www.livegreenblog.com/media/photos/38/6604/Flat_Tower_1_lvgmain.jpg

The way we currently live is laughably, ridiculously, criminally wasteful and detrimental to human life and life in general on this planet:

above ground: nothing
ground: everything
underground: nothing (maybe a few subways here and there)