> V.Kemp wrote:

> ~Wornstrum~, he's a student of economics. He believes what his professors, who have a vested interest in the system as it is, tell him to believe.

Okay... saying that my opinion is based solely on an appeal to authority... an ad hominem, but fine...

> I will mock you all when I finally get to Griffin's book on the fed. I can barely find the time to troll forums now.

WAIT A SEC!  *pushes the hypocrisy button on you*

What makes your appeal to authority any better than mine?  Especially when you literally say "I don't know what my justification is, but once I get to this book, I'm going to parrot what he says."  Seriously?  X(

It's one thing to hold an opinion until after you get to some research.  It's a whole different thing to say "I'm going to take a preconceived stance as of now, but once I read this book to reinforce my preconceived notion, I'm definitely sure."

The thing is, I try to separate macroeconomics and microeconomics.  As I mentioned previously, microeconomic effects are spurious and bidirectional (some people benefit where other people lose), so it's difficult by any means to say that we should stop one microeconomic effect unless you are outright advocating giving preference to one group of people over the other.

So either you're taking a completely ethical stance (even if some people benefit and other people lose, there is some ethical stance that is more important than the utilitarian effects), which just can't be argued with because ethics are often tautological, or you have to go back to the macroeconomic effects, which is the particularly important inflation/deflation argument.

And no, I'm not "quick" to give credence to a side.  In the background is years of debating and evaluating the models I described earlier.  So please don't dismiss my stances as just following a crowd, because unlike many people here, I took great care in posting detailed analysis of the issue previously.

Anyway... I'll defer on this re-hashing... *waits to see what you come up with*

@Xeno

The german problem is, that our grandparents murdered through Europe. So, their children and grandchildren are ashamed of those black sheeps in the family. To cover the crimes the government had to accept certain concessions. One of those was the Euro. Are Germans happy that prices doubled over night? No! But in the name of: we-are-the-good-guys-let-us-all-be-friends-buy-our-cars-love-you-all... there was no other option. You are right, the Euro made german exports more cheap and together with reforms allows Germany to compete with China in global exports. Germany is the last european nation with a good financial standing. As most tax payers Germans are not happy to pay for a failed Greek 'economy'. I don't think that Germany would 'buy' other nations, but who pays guides. So, if Germany says "Jump!" Other nations have to.

@Xeno
Germans spent more than 1 trilion Euro to build up former East Germany after 1990 and we will pay more until 2020. So, if necessary Germans may pay if there is a very good reason. The problem is, that the common German has no real picture of what is happening in southern Europe. News are fine, but most have traveled to southern Europe and made experiences that created a diffrent picture. E. g. Greeks start work early in the morning, because later it gets hot. In the afternoon they don't work. The common tourist sleeps a bit longer on vacations, so he can see only Greeks working for a few hours and than laying in the shadows drinking wine = Lazy Greeks. The negative aspects of corruption in the media adds to this picture, because many experienced on vacation the problems of corruption. So Germans wouldn't pay the Greek a Cent without the reforms our chancelor demands.

The german worker won't sacrifice much. The labor reforms and rising prices created great pressure to find a job and work hard. Income levels didn't rise more than inflation or dropped below in the last 10 years. That is another reason why many Germans cannot understand the closed labor markets in Italy or Greece.  Transfers of billions would be made through cuts in the budget. It would harm the welfare sector and so the poor. Possible are higher taxes on goods or higher incomes.

How long? In most opinions it will never start. Every german government that would agree to Euro bonds without doom on the doorstep would be washed away by uprisings. Our politicans know that very good. Everything is fun and nice, but transfers are nothing diffrent than tributs. That didn't work after the First World War.

Extremistic parties have no chance in Germany. Diffrent agencies control the extremistic scene.

But the revolution has already started. The Pirates are building up support for a new way of policy. Total freedom and participation in decision processes. It is the fullfillment of the peoples' desires for real time control over the politicans. Many Germans are angry after 10 years of hard pressure and the financial crisis, which made spendings of billions necessary, pushed the anger forward. They want direct control of our politicans, who sell the future of our children to banks and corrupt nations. Voters will influence the decisions simply by supporting new ideas and movements in the parties by giving them their support through a vote. People can give everything their support or disapproval through liquid feedback. You don't want that your MP supports a law? Beginn a discussion over your views in liquid feedback, formulate a directive how the MP shall act about the law and start a vote about the matter. If your case is just, the voters will support you and after the poll ended, the MP has to do what the party decided. Real time democracy.

Xeno,

the european treaties and most of all the german constitution don't allow bail outs. The chancelor is already at the borders. A few steps more and the supreme court would stop her, even by destroying the Euro zone. The last decisions of the supreme court gave her the guidelines.

China reaches limits in growth right now. The inflation rises, payment rises and the bureaucracy is blockaded. Germany is ranked 9th in the IMD Ranking and the only member of the EU in the top 10. Through harsh reforms and deep cuts in social welfare Germany was able to reach this position. Sure, many Germans would like to have the social benefits back, but our politicans know that this would cost too much. European economies can compete with China. We just have to modernize our economy and liberate the labor market. Of course, this is easy talk. Germany had time for the reforms, but time is a luxury today. The Portugese and Irish are doing a good job. Only the Greek are hopelessly behind.

http://www.imd.org/research/publications/wcy/World-Competitiveness-Yearbook-Results/#/wcy-2012-rankings/

"If the austerity measures, innovation, education, etc., fail to make Europe competitive enough (which I see as highly likely), and Europeans start clamoring for Germany to prop up their social welfare systems or they quit the Euro, what might be the result?"

The ridiculousness of our human civilization is apparent in the answer to the above question.  For it isn't even whether or not Europe can compete with China which is the crux of the matter, but, rather, the extent of Europeans' perceptions that Europe can or not.  And this effectually puts the fate of the global economy into the hands of few a politicians, and NOT mind you in the hands of politicians of the world's major economies, but, rather, in the hands of those of the smallest or weakest, or seemingly most insignificant economies of the world: one day, and one day soon, the fate of economic prosperity of BILLIONS may rest in the yays or nays of politicians voting in parliaments of such countries as Slovenia or Luxembourg.  It's absolutely absurd!  For, if even one or two of Europe's EU members drop out, the result may be a catalyst for a mass exodus of other EU member states from the EU.

And what happens to Germany when it is the only EU member?  The Euro skyrockets, and Germans can say 'bye-bye' to the economic prosperity they've been enjoying.  Suddenly, and ironically, the only people in the world who might be able and willing to afford German products at that point would be the Chinese-'communist'-regime-affiliated nouvea-riche. Lol.

The thing you have to understand about xeno syndicated is that he's a child with literally no understanding of anything that's ever happened outside of his own front door.

"Read this first about decision making in the EU:"

I'm talking about what might happen if countries started leaving the EU AND therefore the Eurozone.

Read this about EU members seceding from EU:

"Article 50

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49."

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Consolidated_version_of_the_Treaty_on_European_Union/Title_VI:_Final_Provisions#Article_50

In other words, EU member states need only to have a referendum or even just vote in parliament, and then write a letter, lick, stamp, and plop it in a mailbox.  And since it is a requirement to be an EU member as a pre-requisite to joining Eurozone, it's the quickest and surest way to drop the Euro

"Only a nation run by idiots would leave the EU"

This is exactly my concern.  Why should the rest of the world's economy be held hostage to the whims of idiots running parliaments of some backwater EU states?

> V.Kemp wrote:

> Little Paul, the minority of intelligent and responsible people are [fudged].

This is the case with any democratic system. Problems arise when culture becomes trashy and intelligence/education/responsibility are not encouraged/respected.

Hmm, sounds like Britain at the moment - what with the phenomenal popularity of shows like Geordie Shore, The Only Way is Essex, The Voice, Britain's Got Talent as well as...  Eurovision.  [shudders]

I suspect it's becoming that way in American with the rise of shows like Jersey Shore and American Idol too...

The US should require an IQ in the 70th percentile in order to attend a 4 year university.