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Imperial Forum → Politics → Spectacular: My own Obama VS McCain thread! (Lisbon Treaty)
Sorry I all got you there, I will post spam instead, i.o.w. a real political subject:
The real toppic:
~~Ireland to reject lisbon treaty. ~~
In a referenda the irish rejected the lisbon treaty. Manuel barroso already said they will go on with the treaty none the less.
linky: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon
any thoughts?
of course I have thoughts
matters such as this treaty are not to be decided by popular vote; you don't ask the general population to perform brain surgery, so why should you allow the general population allow a direct vote in matters they do not fully comprehend; + these kind of votes are about everything from the cracks in teh pavement on buddy mcwho's street corner to paddy mccash's misgivings about the irish governments and about anything else but the treaty, which people don't understand anyway nor do they even want to understand
I'm not saying the general population shouldn't have a vote of course, but voting through democratically elected representatives are much more sensible
those are my thoughts
Indeed, the treaty of lisbon doesn't actually change a lot for the people, only it only changes the organisation of EU. It was a silly thing to let the people decide about it when 99% doesn't even know what it's about. They're right to pass it anyway though (if they're really doing that, as you say)..
We were promised a referendum on this issue and we weren't given it =/
thx theo for the edit 
and sorry mods for the practical joke but I couldn't resist.
@WFS:
"Indeed, the treaty of lisbon doesn't actually change a lot for the people, only it only changes the organisation of EU."
The EU decides the biggest part of the laws for those people. So in that light alone I think its very important.
"It was a silly thing to let the people decide about it when 99% doesn't even know what it's about. They're right to pass it anyway though (if they're really doing that, as you say).."
I don't know,but Barosso said so, France, Germany so I presume and hope it will get trough.
The treaty is rather important in that way it makes the EU more democratic and more easy to understand. It gives more power to the parliament, the most democratic organ of the EU.
@east
"I'm not saying the general population shouldn't have a vote of course, but voting through democratically elected representatives are much more sensible"
unfortunately yes. Unfortunately because its also more corrupt but we have no alternative.
While I'm glad the Irished voted No yesterday, I can't but think that eventually the treaty will get implemented, one way or another. The treaty has already been pushed down the throats of most member states. Parliments not allowing any referendums at all. The only reason why there was one in Ireland is because their Constitution demands it. (afaik).
Clearly, the populations of France, Ireland and the Netherlands are against the EU Constitution / Treaty. I wonder how many countries would have voted No if they had been given the chance.
@wfs,
Its one of the main problems with the EU in general. They don't communicate enough. We know every minor national law that gets passed even if it doesn't change a thing but we never heared of what the EU decided (wich even might be the reason that national law got passed)
@bief:
they vote no for the wrong reasons. Most of the no-voters propably had reasons wich were exactly what the treaty solved.
That's like saying people are to stupid to vote at all, let's do all the thinking for them? I don't like where that train of thought leads to.
But bief it is true.. people are voting NO for the wrong reasons. It was a political victory to those who oppose the prime minister and not a victory for those who actually thinks that the Lisbon Treaty will do more warm than good.
"I'm not saying the general population shouldn't have a vote of course, but voting through democratically elected representatives are much more sensible"
I agree with you. People are voting no because they are told to vote no.
OMG you cheated us X(
lol
![[TI] Lateralis](https://imperialconflict.com/forum/img/avatars/1280.gif)
For those in the UK I suggest picking up regular copies of "Private Eye" magazine. For those outside of the UK, you maybe able to find it in good shops, but you can always subscribe online.
The point I would like to make, however, is that the people that sit in the European Parliament are not democratically elected, in any meaningful way, by the European people and most of them are only there for thsemsleves. All of them have their snouts in the trough, and most of them have their two front trotters in as well.
The whole thing is an utter sham and degrades the meaning of the word "democracy". I do not trust the European Parliament, I do not agree with the way they organise things and largely, I don't agree with the majority of the directives and "laws" they try and pass off to the rest of us.
Whilst I do not disagree with the ideals of the EU, the current setup is a load of [lies] and utterly corrupt. The whole thing will need to be scrapped and started again before I will even consider supporting the current EU Parliament, much less agree to the ratification of a [damn obvious lying] document like the Lisbon Treaty.
So yes, I strongly urge people to read Private Eye and see exactly what all these so-called "leaders" get up to. Makes for interesting (if, at times, blood boiling) reading.
"The treaty is rather important in that way it makes the EU more democratic and more easy to understand. It gives more power to the parliament, the most democratic organ of the EU."
Indeed.
"Its one of the main problems with the EU in general. They don't communicate enough. We know every minor national law that gets passed even if it doesn't change a thing but we never heared of what the EU decided (wich even might be the reason that national law got passed)"
And correct again. But this is exactly why the whole referendum was a silly idea. This treaty was exactly to make things better, a step in the right direction that should have been encouraged rather than punished.
And I agree with Lateralis, the EU should be more democratic, and we should have done it "the english way", wich means, through different reforms. Although, I can't help but feeling Lat's pov is the typical British pov on the European Union.
"The point I would like to make, however, is that the people that sit in the European Parliament are not democratically elected, in any meaningful way, by the European people and most of them are only there for thsemsleves. All of them have their snouts in the trough, and most of them have their two front trotters in as well."
the european parliament is directly elected by the populations of each member state - the fact that you can't vote for say as an Englishman for say a candidate in spain is normal for any type of federation
the "democratic deficit" is due to other matters, which were being adressed by the new treaty
But maybe it will be a good thing if persons got ellected by the population of whole europe. It forces them to make their acchievements known to the big public and communicate.
> East wrote:
> of course I have thoughts
matters such as this treaty are not to be decided by popular vote; you don't ask the general population to perform brain surgery, so why should you allow the general population allow a direct vote in matters they do not fully comprehend; + these kind of votes are about everything from the cracks in teh pavement on buddy mcwho's street corner to paddy mccash's misgivings about the irish governments and about anything else but the treaty, which people don't understand anyway nor do they even want to understand
I'm not saying the general population shouldn't have a vote of course, but voting through democratically elected representatives are much more sensible
those are my thoughts
the Irish constitution demands a referendum on any constitutional changes, while no other EU country has had a referendum because govts rightly fear a no vote.
the vote always ends up in a popularity test for the ruling party instead. Thats why.
Ignore the commoners, they're not fit to tie their own shoelaces. It's exactly that sentiment why the EU has so little support amongst the Europeans.
Well at least the EU believes something that's right. Voting should be restricted to people with university degrees or who make upper middle class incomes.
Justinian all I am going to say is:
Service gives citizenship.
10 gc if you can name the movie 
![[TI] ZoZferatu [Pw9]](https://imperialconflict.com/forum/img/avatars/2979.gif){kind=small}
I prefer Justinians thinking above the one quoting a theme from a movie about blasting alien bugs into slime.
The book is better than the movie.
And how
I forget, do the Bugs fry Rico's mom in the movie?
> Einstein wrote:
> Justinian all I am going to say is:
Service gives citizenship.
10 gc if you can name the movie
Starship troopers.
1st one was awesome. Awesome watching Rico's girlfriend, and the rivalry he had with her new prospect on the starship. I actually laughed like hell when the brain bug sucked his brains out.
2nd one kinda gay. Although, I thought the nudity from the blonde was cool, and Dax was a good actor.
3rd one, Maurauder. I can't wait until it gets out!
Now give me my money.
As for the idea of military service bringing citizenship, naw. Maybe it can be an option, but not the only option. Education, public accomplishments, and income should count too.
Yell,
Kind of. Rico's family was rich and lived in Buenos Aires. The bugs launched a meteorite that landed bugs, and the Federation had to blow the place up. That or the bugs just blew Buenos Aires up with the meteorite. I don't remember for sure.
I think there were others ways of getting the citizenship besides being a military. I rebember Rico being asked that question in a class but i cant recall the answer
Imperial Forum → Politics → Spectacular: My own Obama VS McCain thread! (Lisbon Treaty)
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