Topic: The truth about gun control

D.C.'s Flawed Reasoning

by John R. Lott, Jr.

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In asking the Supreme Court to let the District of Columbia ban handguns, the city has a simple argument: Whatever one thinks of the Second Amendment, banning handguns is a "reasonable regulation" to protect public safety. The problem for the city is that anyone who can look up the crime numbers will see that D.C.'s violent crime rate went up, not down, after the ban.

D.C. notes that criminals like to use handguns to commit crimes. We all want to disarm criminals, but, as long as one recognizes the possibility of self-defense, at best the city's claim can only be part of the story. As with all gun-control laws, the question is ultimately whether it is the law-abiding citizens or criminals who are most likely to obey the law. If law-abiding citizens are the ones who turn in their guns and not the criminals, crime rates can go up, not down.

The city's brief focuses only on murder rates in discussing crime in D.C. Yet, in the five years before Washington's ban in 1976, the murder rate fell from 37 to 27 per 100,000. In the five years after it went into effect, the murder rate rose back up to 35. But there is one fact that seems particularly hard to ignore. D.C.'s murder rate fluctuated after 1976 but has only once fallen below what it was in 1976 (that happened years later, in 1985). Does D.C. really want to argue that the gun ban reduced the murder rate?

Similarly for violent crime, from 1977 to 2003, there were only two years when D.C.'s violent crime rate fell below the rate in 1976. These drops and subsequent increases were much larger than any changes in neighboring Maryland and Virginia. For example, D.C.'s murder rate fell 3.5 to 3 times more than in the neighboring states during the five years before the ban and rose back 3.8 times more in the five years after it. D.C.'s murder rate also rose relative to that in other similarly sized cities.

Surely D.C. has had many problems that contribute to crime, but even cities with far better police departments have seen crime soar in the wake of handgun bans. Chicago has banned all handguns since 1982. Indeed, D.C. points to Chicago's ban to support its own ban. But the gun ban didn't work at all when it came to reducing violence. Chicago's murder rate fell from 27 to 22 per 100,000 in the five years before the law and then rose slightly to 23. The change is even more dramatic when compared to five neighboring Illinois counties: Chicago's murder rate fell from being 8.1 times greater than its neighbors in 1977 to 5.5 times in 1982, and then went way up to 12 times greater in 1987.

Taking a page from recent Supreme Court cases, D.C. points to gun bans in other countries as evidence that others think that gun bans are desirable. But the experience in other countries, even island nations that have gone so far as banning guns and where borders are easy to monitor, should give D.C. and its supporters some pause. Not only didn't violent crime and homicide decline as promised, but they actually increased.

D.C.'s brief specifically points to Great Britain's handgun ban in January 1997. But the number of deaths and injuries from gun crime in England and Wales increased 340 percent in the seven years from 1998 to 2005. The rates of serious violent crime, armed robberies, rapes and homicide have also soared.

The Republic of Ireland banned and confiscated all handguns and all center fire rifles in 1972, but murder rates rose fivefold by 1974 and in the 20 years after the ban has averaged 114 percent higher than the pre-ban rate (never falling below at least 31 percent higher).

Jamaica banned all guns in 1974, but murder rates almost doubled from 11.5 per 100,000 in 1973 to 19.5 in 1977, and soared further to 41.7 in 1980.

Evidence is also available for other countries. For example, it is hard to think of a much more draconian police state than the former Soviet Union. Yet despite a ban on guns that dated back to the Communist revolution, its murder rates were high. During the entire decade from 1976 to 1985 the Soviet Union's homicide rate was between 21 and 41 percent higher than that of the United States. By 1989, two years before the collapse of the Soviet Union, it had risen to 48 percent above the U.S. rate.

Even if D.C.'s politicians want to keep arguing for a ban based on public safety, hard facts must eventually matter. If they can't see that gun-control laws have failed to deliver as promised, maybe the Supreme Court can point it out for them.

This article was originally published in the September 7 Washington Times.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
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Re: The truth about gun control

The figures went up because guns are still legal on the other side of an uncontrolled border, which is a criminals dream. We have the same problem in the UK thanks to Eire, Jersey and Guernsey.

"So, it's defeat for you, is it? Someday I must meet a similar fate..."

3 (edited by Freelancer 12-Jun-2008 13:59:28)

Re: The truth about gun control

The article is lack of information about the murder rate.

Why? there are different types of murder. They are normally divided into two,

1- Where the criminal prepares and thinks about the murder, in way where it will be more easy for him to kill and to escape justice
2- Where a person just snaps and kills someone with out any preparation and thinking

The law helps alot to prevent the second type of murder, since if people do not have guns it will be harder for they to snap and kill someone. The law does not work so good for the first type of murder since the criminal will have time to think, prepare and even try to buy an illegal gun.

It would be nice to have some data where it could be shown if the murder rate do to firearms did increase or decrease.

Re: The truth about gun control

Ahh....I got it.

So a person can get angry, and go get their gun, and kill someone.
If they had not gun, they would not be able to kill that person.

How does having a gun or not having a gun work ". . .a lot to prevent the 2nd type of murder. . ."?

I dont see it. 

1. You are a murderer.
2. You can use a number of means to kill someone.

So, to control this unreal, tiny, minuscule % of people who when they snap do not commit a murder because there is no gun around

Vs.

The 2nd amendment right to bear amrs.
The right to defend your person or family......probably a greater % will actually need to use that firearm for protection/defence.

The ability to deter a crime from happening when a criminal has the knowledge that a target may have firearms to defend themselves with.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The truth about gun control

"So, to control this unreal, tiny, minuscule % of people who when they snap do not commit a murder because there is no gun around"

In my post in no way i told was for or against the law.

I simple asked if flint could give us some more data.

If the murders do to firearms did decrease then the new law may protect more persons than older law. If not then the law did not work

"So, to control this unreal, tiny, minuscule % of people who when they snap do not commit a murder because there is no gun around"

they are not a minuscule % in my country the murder do to people snapping are higher the the other ones.

"The 2nd amendment right to bear amrs."

laws can be outdated

"The ability to deter a crime from happening when a criminal has the knowledge that a target may have firearms to defend themselves with."

Normally the reality is different, sadly enough

Re: The truth about gun control

I didnt say why or why not you are for or not the law .

"they are not a minuscule % in my country the murder do to people snapping are higher the the other ones."

We are talking about Guns.  In other words, If a person snaps, w/o a gun they are now safe to everyone else ?
And, I think that the people who snap, then kill is a tiny % of the population.  Taking gun access away will surely not change that number much.

2nd Amendment is not a law.  Its part of the Constitution.  The reason it was put into the constitution was for the people to be able to have access to weapons, so they can eliminate a corrupt Govt. when all else fails.
Its a part of the Constitution that has been under attack by Socialists in America for quite awhile now.

I wrote:

"The ability to deter a crime from happening when a criminal has the knowledge that a target may have firearms to defend themselves with."

You answered:
"Normally the reality is different, sadly enough."

Normally the reality is different ??  Care to back that up ??........or......

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The truth about gun control

"Normally the reality is different ??  Care to back that up ??........or......"

You are lucky i found a paper i did long ago for a psycology class tongue will try to summerize

In 1964 in a New York street a young woman was assaulted and murder over a period of half an hour, more that 40 people heard the screams and none tried to help or even make contact with the police. It was then that scientist begun to study how people respond to emergency situations when either alone or in a group. And you know what? the results were really interesting.

1- There was a diffusion of responsibility, were people were less likely to intervene to help someone who seems to need it if there are others present, because they perceive responsibility as being shared between all present, and therefore see themselves as being less responsible personally.

2- pluralistic ignorance, the tendency for people in a group to mislead each other about a situation. For example a person might define an emergency as a non-emergency because others are remaining calm and not taking action.

3- many people also showed cost-reward analysis, where they would not act if they had nothing to win or they could lose alot.

Some examples

1- look how i begun the post. People did no call for help or help at all because they thought other people would do it

2- one of the studies simulated a drunk men collapsing in a train, in this situation we received help 50% of the time and only by man (if there is nothing to gain why help?)

3- the example i like the most.

"This experiment tested whether group influences would increase intervention if a villain was involved.

The staged a shoplifting theft of a case of beer at a liquor store. They had two variables - one or two customers in the store, and one or two "robbers". Overall 20% of subjects reported the theft spontaneously, and 51% reported upon prompting by the store owner (who had gone in the back during the robbery).

One or two robbers made no difference. Sex made no difference. 65% of single customers reported the theft. But only 56% of two-customer setups made a report (less than expected)."

If you want to research abit more i advise you to read studies done by Pilivian, Rodin, Latan

Re: The truth about gun control

"So a person can get angry, and go get their gun, and kill someone.
If they had not gun, they would not be able to kill that person."

Give a man a 10 round clip and a good eye and he can kill 10 people before most people can react.  Give a man a knife and he will be able to kill considerably less.  No one in their right mind would claim that without guns no one would kill anybody, but similarly no one in their right mind would deny a man with a gun can kill more people in the same amount of time than a man without a gun.

"2nd Amendment is not a law.  Its part of the Constitution.  The reason it was put into the constitution was for the people to be able to have access to weapons, so they can eliminate a corrupt Govt. when all else fails."

I have to agree with Freelancer here, even if every citizen had a gun without organization they would not be able to do anything against a corrupt government.

Now I do not support banning guns, I agree with the view that if you take guns away from people the only people who will have guns are criminals.  I do however think the states needs to excercise a bit more control, that is to say excercise any control, over the ownership of guns.  For example put a limit on the number of guns a person can own.  If you want to own a gun for personal and home defense more power to you but you don't need a dozen guns to do it.  Also consider making it a law that people with a recent history of violence can't own a gun, for obvious reasons.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: The truth about gun control

The Group mentality or neighborhood response to a crime is a old case study for sure.  I believe that socio-Economic factors have a lot more to do with it than you lead on.  Areas prone to crime vs. areas that are not will have different responses .... IN MY OPINION....and only relying on my experiences.

So, does the above make it a scientific fact ??  No. just my experience from living in a tenement neighborhood where you didnt even talk to the person on a different floor, and a 1-2 family home neighborhood where all know each other.

If it were I, I guess Im in the minority that would actually call the police or even try to help...but, then again....Im an evil Conservative.

Back to the point:

I have no clue what this means to the If a person snaps, he will surely use any weapon or means of killing another if that is the final goal of that snapped individual,.....if there is a gun present or not.....is my point.  A knife, or bludgeoning instrument wont suffice ?? 

********

DPS....are you really taking both sides of the argument ?

First off, the right to bear arms.....
No one individual makes a rebellion.  No one individual w/a weapon will make a rebellion.
Weak argument.  Take away weapons, and its a given there will be no rebellion ... period.

Take away all, you agree will make it so only criminals have weaps ??
Yea...this is the point.

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The truth about gun control

I have lived in neighborhoods where people were shocked when I took action against bad guys. It was unexpected to them, and did not fit their way of living.

There are places in Portland were if you get mugged no one will help, then there are places if you get mugged the mugger will be happy to see the police finally show up. Well I will help regardless of location, and so will others who almost entirely vote conservative..

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Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The truth about gun control

"Give a man a knife and he will be able to kill considerably less."



so that japanese guy with the knife that killed 7 people just got lucky? What about the other 10 people he cut? I guess they just got lucky they survived....


btw, from the los angeles times:

"A policeman ended the frenzy by knocking the knife from the attacker's hands with a nightstick. But the assailant did not surrender until the officer drew his gun."


also from the news article:

"Japan's recorded murder rate remains extremely low, but the country has been unsettled by other recent knife attacks."




banning things doesnt help. In junior high we had a kid that went around stabbing people with a number 2 pencil. 4 kids had to have surgery from his attacks. They didnt ban number 2 pencils from school.



In oklahoma, they passed the conceal and carry law for firearms. Crime has dropped dramatically. One county went as far to pass a law that people could carry openly...THEIR crime rate has dropped to almost nothing.

Re: The truth about gun control

in UK they are alarmed by knife attacks. Barricades to search people passing through for knives are going on.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: The truth about gun control

"DPS....are you really taking both sides of the argument ?"

Yes I am, it is one of the fringe benefits of being a Canadian I'm able to disagree with part of an idea without disagreeing with the idea as a whole.  I agree that banning guns won't do any good, but there is a need for control.  Regardless of your constitution there are people who should not be allowed to own a fire arm.  To list a few; minors, anyone with a history of criminal violence, anyone with a history of mental instability, anyone who's been convicted of a felony (I don't believe in rehabilitation a criminal is, was, and will always be a criminal) those are just 3 people off the top of my head who I think shouldn't be allowed to own guns, and to be honest I'm not overly comfortable with them owning anything more dangerous than a butter knife.

I'm not saying lack of gun control is the cause of gun violence but it certainly doesn't help the situation.

"so that japanese guy with the knife that killed 7 people just got lucky? What about the other 10 people he cut? I guess they just got lucky they survived...."

Ok perhaps I was unclear a man with a gun and a 10 round clip can easily kill 10 people before anyone has time to react.  I highly doubt that the man you mentioned killed 7 people within a matter seconds.  Regardless it still doesn't negate the fact that it is easier to kill more people with a gun.

"banning things doesnt help."

As I said in my initial post, however it can't hurt to excercise a little discretion in who you let carry a firearm.  Let me put it this way, chances are we all know someone who is highly agressive and short tempered who is prone to violence (gets in lots of fights).  Now I'm not comfortable around this person with a baseball bat I certainly don't want them carrying a gun.  Similarly I know people who suffer from hallucinations, I don't want them with a gun either.  These people's judgement cannot be trusted, their normal behaviour makes them a potential danger to those around them why give them a tool to make it easier.

"In oklahoma, they passed the conceal and carry law for firearms. Crime has dropped dramatically. One county went as far to pass a law that people could carry openly...THEIR crime rate has dropped to almost nothing."

And as I said in my initial post I have no problem with people owning guns for personal and home protection.  I honestly think people don't read my whole posts cause this happens a lot.  I have no problem with average joe owning a gun for hunting, protection, etc.  However I do believe certain people, as listed above, who are not average joe present a greater threat to the people around them than average joe by owning a gun and should not be allowed to own one.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: The truth about gun control

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI


splendid fun how ppl link heroics to what party they vote.. in -my- experience politics do not matter wether or not someone takes action in case of emergency and such.

and isnt this a neverending discussion?

society is  changing though, and it is changing towards having more violence in it, i dont think lots of bans and rules will stop that.  people have gotten accustomed to guns, in some parts it's even part of the culture (they say), they will not give in on anything considering their rods of virility and protection and so on.

One can always hope that stupid people dont get more stupid, because a weapon backed up with stupidity is even more dangerous.

@TMK
Mebbe it is an all or nothing thing; either we all get a gun, or neither of us does

and why are you pointing out the fact that the officer took out his gun? everyone expects officers to have guns..
and if crimerates overall are low, but you mention one unsettling event, what are you trying to prove there?
i think the question is wether by comparison guns are responsible for more deaths/accidents, w/e
(i mean they didnt ban guitar strings, rat poison, lighters, high cliffs etc either, i m sure that stuff got ppl killed as well)

till the end of time..

Re: The truth about gun control

hmz DPS, how about drunk people, or people entering a bar or something?

till the end of time..

Re: The truth about gun control

Im always wary when flint posts "statistics" he has demonstrated time after time that he has a severe lack of understanding there.

Fact is that countries with tighter gun controls tend have lower murder rates than countries with lax controls.

In the UK its still headline news when theres a gun murder, in USA you could fill a newspaper every day with just gun murder stories.

But if americans want the "freedom" to continue killing each other en masse, thats their preogative.

Re: The truth about gun control

Indeed, let them silly murderous americans kill eachother ehh Black_Wing?
Sounds idiotic to me, but perhaps I missed something.

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Re: The truth about gun control

"DPS....are you really taking both sides of the argument ?"

Yes I am, it is one of the fringe benefits of being a Canadian....."

Enough said....the rest you wrote is so obvious, Even I can support most of it.

* * * * * *

@Nem, it is true.....because of your belief system defines your party affiliation....does it not ?

Conservative, flag waving Americans, are more likely to serve in the military, than Flag burning, rainbow flag waiving Socialists/liberals.
Conservatives who believe in personal responsiblity, are more likely to help someone in distress, than Socialist/Liberals who believe that the Govt. will take care of you.   Maybe, that Lib/Soc may make a phone call.

Just my opinion, of course, from what I have seen in life.

* * * *

@ Selur, actually, its more about gang violence, and drug wars, and less about passion killing.
Wasnt this about a person flipping ?

* * * *

@ Dragon
you write:
"Indeed, let them silly murderous Americans kill eachother ehh Black_Wing?"

Now, is that what you got out of what I have been writing ??  Im a constitutionalist.  I believe that it is very simple, 2nd amendment is clear in its purpose and reasoning.

I Would NOT expect, you especially Dragon, many to understand the concept.  The Founding fathers of the American Govt., knew all to well how corrupt Govt. can be, or become, even under our system.

No, you seem to be Idiotic, because you take it as a chance to personally target me, but make yourself absolutely intellectually inferior to most on this forum.   

Its a continuous bunch of nonsense that you post, and its really pathetic.

I was wondering Dragon, do you EVER have something intelligent to write ??

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The truth about gun control

I agree with DPS, to an extent, Gun ownership does need to have certain restrictions on it.  Felons shouldnt be allowed to own a gun.  Background checks with the purchase of a gun.  things like that.  Banning guns is not an option for the United States.  they are deeply embedded in our culture not to mention protected in our constitution. 

However i am not very prone to accepting any, more restricting, conditions.  The only way guns will be banned is if the community allows these seemingly small restrictions to be slowly added on.  eventually the amount of restrictions would be tremendous and effectively ban guns.

Its kinda funny how this debate has been going on for YEARS and probable will continue for YEARS.

In matters of style, swim with the current;
In matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                          Thomas Jefferson

Re: The truth about gun control

"hmz DPS, how about drunk people, or people entering a bar or something?"

Well that's a little harder to control.  I can't tell when I'm selling someone a gun that they're going to get drunk eventually.  If they're drunk when they come to buy the gun obviously selling it to them would be a no no.  As for bars, that's really the choice of the establishment, if they want to have bouncers pat people down looking for guns that's their perogative but I'd guess they'd lose some business that way.

There are 10 kinds of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.

Re: The truth about gun control

Black_Wing... yea that's what I can get from your sentences. You say "no no NEVER" to gun controll even though it kills many thousand americans every year. And ofc much less guns would lower that amount.
I really don't see how you can disagree with that.

Also, I dunno what you mean by defending against a corrupted government...
In what way corrupt and in what way defend yourself against it with guns?

And also if you see how you yourself write your posts they are often targeting someone and trying to belitleing them, thus why I write the way I do smile

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Re: The truth about gun control

@ Dragon

You write:

". . .You say "no no NEVER" to gun controll even though it kills many thousand americans every year. . ."

Yes, I agree, many dead American could have had a gun by there side before they were murdered......agreed.


If you dont understand the concept of corrupt Govts. or armed rebellion against a Govt......then what can I say.
Have you studied history at all ?? 

Maybe, you havent, and if you have not.....Im sorry for what I wrote......  Are you that young ??  Sorry again.
I assumed you were much further along in education.

What grade have you completed ?

Come .......joust w/the master.
I'm always Right.   You are just intellectually Left.....behind.
Individual patriot, and a REAGAN Conservative.

Re: The truth about gun control

Black_Wing, just one question.  I'm just interested in the reply on this one.

In today's modern age of advanced military hardware and sophisticated surveillance techniques, can an armed rebellion in the US succeed anymore, assuming the military remained loyal to the state?  And if so, what size of a civilian force would be necessary?  (Remember that each person rising up with a gun is also a person refusing to contribute to the economy that would fuel a corrupt military regime, slightly weakening its power).


If a revolution can't take place using the weapons that are allowed by the citizens, would that not mean that you can't claim checks against the government as an advantage of gun control?

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: The truth about gun control

BW: here is another example of you insulting someone before they insult you... sure you imagined a slight because someone mentioned your name and amde a semi-serious post, but hey thats the same as bagging them for their beliefs.


Also after reading this I ma even more amazed how 'right wingers' are so entrenched in the past, I know that is what defines a conservitive and all but surely eventually you have to realise we aren't in the 18th century anymore...


Also if banning guns means that only criminals have guns, doesn't that make things easier? Person has gun => criminal...


and yes i know that was kind of asinine but really when does any intelligent statements get typed in this forum?

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

Re: The truth about gun control

Weird, I thought Black_Wing thought higher of his country then to compare it to countries where armed rebelion takes place...
In USA such a thing will never happen, except for teh stupidest of reasons.
For example if more black people there get into power THEN there might be a small riseup. Not cause of corruption, but cause of racism.
I really can't see any real reason why the population there would rise up. If there had been any then it would have happened already.
Your government IS very corrupt. So I dunno what you are waiting for really. People having to have 2-3 jobs to coop with their lifes. It's a disgrace really. So use your guns and make the country a better place? Else you have no need for them...

25 Inventors: Back from Hell (8528) (x:93,y:21) 391 845454 - Dont see them coming back up. Theyre out of the game. Pretender, will finish out of top 30.
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