Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Grab thy sword and prepare for combat.

I am going to get you to concede a Republic is the best form of Government.

You have bounced along from a 'Benevolent Tyranny' to 'A government by the smartest' to even at times suggesting a government by the political, economic, and military elite.

Your views on Governments is weaksauce and I intend to get a concession from you on this!


Empirical Evidence shows all nations where a single leader was made in sense life long ruler in modern times under the premise of 'being a caring leader' or a leader who will bring 'Utopia' has in fact done the opposite. Hugo Chavez, Castro, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, and Ghandi are my examples.

Hugo has increased poverty, decreased his nations buying power, and stifled people from complaining.

Castro took a tropical paradise with a booming economy and made it so everyone struggles on a daily basis. They imprisoned people for opposing their views and when prior to the revolution people SOUGHT to live there, people now seek to leave there.

Mao killed more people than anyone else in his nation. He forced people to attempt draconian ideas, raped little girls, and engaged in wars and made a nation clearly intent on war.

Stalin was runner up for most killed, only he was more brutal about it. He never liked bad news, which lead to people reporting only good news even if this was a lie. This affected the Soviet Union through its whole life of course.

Pol Pot made history by being per capita the biggest democide man in world history. He was brutal and you better be in his group or you were on his hunting list.

Ghandi kicked the British out, but had no means then to handle the Islamists. His failures lead to China invading once, and to many skirmishes wth Pakistan. He failed to create a formal layout to prevent conflict, he in a sense lead to the nuclearization of two nations who are essentially blood enemies and to a general slow down of his nations growth for a number of decades.


Every one of them has more flaws, but I expect you to concede none have worked out so well.



So next we have your dream nations. A nation ruled by the smartest huh? Ok so how do you judge this? Nerds or Geeks? Each has their issues, but few would naysay their intelligence. Socially inept, prone to talking over peoples heads.... or unprepared for their theories to meet real world conditions and such. We could declare Mensa people... but then be prepared for them to declare harsh laws (since harshness does make people stop activities such as drug use, prostitution, and the likes).

But who says they will be harsh you say. Well they get to decide, as they are the leaders now. No checks, no balances, just them.


Monarchies have problems as well, think Nero, Charles X, or some other piss poor person like the current leader of N. Korea.


Face it, if you died (and presuming Buddha was correct) and were reincarnated as a woman you would find a Republic to be the best form of Government.

I think you won't support a Democracy, but if you wish to we can toss the dice there as well. So shall we dance Justinian? Or will you concede before I wash the spears?

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

You're really bored this week, aren't you?  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

I'm watching to see how long it takes Justinian I to realize Einstein will respond to literally nothing he says.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

"I am going to get you to concede a Republic is the best form of Government."

Oh, I concede, indeed.  The USSR had a great government, indeed, best the world has ever seen!

5 (edited by Justinian I 28-Apr-2012 19:09:18)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

1. I don't care what form the government is. My major concerns are that people are guaranteed economic liberty and civil rights that protect them from political abuses. In other words, I just want a liberal government, on paper and in practice.

2. You are correct that the majority of contemporary autocratic governments are undesirable. I'm not defending illiberal government.

3. But you fail to acknowledge that the majority of republics in the world are illiberal republics. The majority of contemporary liberal republics in the world are in the West.

4. The United States is fast becoming illiberal. It's coming to the point where elites write laws to make everyone potential criminals just to advance their careers by taking credit for convicting more criminals and/or let their cronies loot the private property of innocent citizens.

5. Given that I want liberal government, I would be fine with a liberal autocracy. If a US general seized absolute power and was able and willing to guarantee liberal government, then I would support him.

6. I will concede one thing though. Republics are more likely to be liberal and more likely to stay liberal over time. But a liberal autocracy is still better than an illiberal republic.

Edit: Fixed some ambiguity.

***IMPORTANT NOTICE ***

In case I failed to make it clear, liberal government is not the same as the politics of the democratic party or other leftists.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

+1 Justiniian

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

> V.Kemp wrote:

> I'm watching to see how long it takes Justinian I to realize Einstein will respond to literally nothing he says.

Arguing with Flint is like playing chess with a pigeon. Even if you are a grandmaster the pigeon will knock all the pieces over, shit on the board, and strut around like it won.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

jhehehe nice thirdrock

<@Nolio> Ilu was the man back in the day,he even made monkeywrench and arganon look good for half a round =p
<@iluvatar> it is my grandest achievement
<@Nolio> *half a round  =p
<@iluvatar> still
* Final_Doom is now known as Thanks_Iluvatar

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

> xeno syndicated wrote:

> +1 Justiniian>

I am surprised you supported it, considering how, by economic liberty, I mean free-market capitalism.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

> Justinian I wrote:

> > xeno syndicated wrote:

> +1 Justiniian>

I am surprised you supported it, considering how, by economic liberty, I mean free-market capitalism.

I am surprised you are surprised that I would support it; I am surprised that you think I do not support free-market capitalism, because I unequivocally do support it.  The difference is, I suppose, I am just not under the illusion that there is such a thing as "free-market capitalism" in the current economic climate.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

In xeno's head, "free market" means government mandated wages and profits taxed 99% in the name of "social justice," ie communism. By using his own definitions for words, he can state that he agrees 100% with your statements, while he disagrees 100% with their meaning. Socrates called this "stupid."

lol @ thirdrock. Nice avatar and tag, btw. I've only been here since the last or second to last beta. I hasn't earned one yet. sad

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

12 (edited by xeno syndicated 29-Apr-2012 05:32:33)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

> V.Kemp wrote:

> In xeno's head, "free market" means government mandated wages and profits taxed 99% in the name of "social justice," ie communism. By using his own definitions for words, he can state that he agrees 100% with your statements, while he disagrees 100% with their meaning. Socrates called this "stupid."

Kemp,

This is NOT what I ever said.  I am beginning to think you have literacy issues.  You just cannot bare to face the fact that although there is "market capitalism" there is nothing "free" about how it is functioning.  They are bailing out entire nations; pumping hundreds of billions of money into the financial systems.  If there were "free" market capitalism, there wouldn't be intervening in the markets they way they are.  Face the facts.  There is no "free market".

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

You've said very directly that you want both near 100% corporate tax rates and forcible wealth/income redistribution.

But, if you want to keep pretending that words mean something different when you use them, continue making bizarre statements which abuse the English language in often claiming you mean literally the opposite of what the words you use mean.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

> V.Kemp wrote:

> You've said very directly that you want both near 100% corporate tax rates and forcible wealth/income redistribution.

Lies.  Slander.  I wonder why you think you can get away with slandering me and lying.  Either you are doing so intentionally or have literacy issues.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

@Kemp

You just cannot bare to face the fact that although there is "market capitalism" there is nothing "free" about how it is functioning.  They are bailing out entire nations; pumping hundreds of billions of money into the financial systems.  If there were "free" market capitalism, there wouldn't be intervening in the markets they way they are.  Face the facts.  There is no "free market".

16 (edited by V.Kemp 29-Apr-2012 08:46:02)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

"> You've said very directly that you want both near 100% corporate tax rates and forcible wealth/income redistribution.
Lies.  Slander.  I wonder why you think you can get away with slandering me and lying.  Either you are doing so intentionally or have literacy issues."

You have said:
"The best way to solve the economic crisis is to announce a change to a progressive corporate tax system...."

2012 US deficit: Gonna hit about 1.5 trillion.
2012 US corporate profits: Gonna hit about 1.6 trillion.

Please explain how this is not a close-to 100% corporate tax rate you've supported. You've stated very clearly that it's the "best way to solve the economic crisis." That's not complex language. _Did you slander yourself?_ And you get upset that I suspect you're on drugs...





I said nothing about free markets. That corruption exists in society today in no way negates your previous statements in support of forced wealth/income redistribution and near 100% corporate tax rates.

You said in a recent thread, that the US government should:
"Government determines what is adding value to society, and pays people accordingly to make more of that happen."
"Government bolsters systems by which self-regulating, self perpetuating, private sector systems ensure that those people who add value to society are rewarded while those who diminish value from society are penalized."

Your words, not mine. Government domination of market/ownership = Communism.

More recently you've advocated taxing the rich at much higher rates.

Even more recently you've proposed a near 100% corporate tax rate. (You proposed a tax so high for high-earners that profitable companies which grew large would have to start "dissolving." Your focus was on government action exterminating profitable businesses and not on closing loopholes. Obviously, looking at the 1.5 trillion deficit and 1.6 trillion corporate profits, closing loopholes would not achieve anything remotely close to balancing our budget... w/o near a 100% corporate tax rate.)

You've said it _even more_ directly recently. I'm sorry I don't care enough to save references to things you're sure to openly lie about later.

These things are openly communist. They're statements of a desire for an all-powerful, all-owning government to control everything supposedly in order to make everything right, because free markets only produce the richest people on earth; and that's not good enough for you. No, we don't have as free markets as we should in the West today. But you _openly_ advocate more government control and less free markets.

The only way in which you support free markets is that, theoretically, in your idealized world where 100% of labor is performed by robots--where everybody has literally everything they want and nobody has to work--you would support free markets _once we reached this point_. Seeing as your desired goal which we would have to reach [through communism] before you supported free markets is a fairy tale, this makes you a communist who despises free markets in the real world.

You're playing with words and talking nonsense.

Do you support free markets and argue for them [prior to nonexistent robo-utopia]? No. Do you support complete government control of wealth, ownership, and income distribution and argue for it? Yes. That makes you a communist. Your argument is with dictionaries and the English language, not with me.

I think Communism is evil, as it subverts human freedom and has consistently been shown academically to result in a lower standard of living--even for the poor. I think everyone who supports it is naive. That said, I can respect people who hold this preference. Naive people aren't necessarily stupid or ignorant [at least not on everything tongue]. I'm not "calling" you a communist. I'm not "accusing" you of being a communist.

I've just pointed out that all of the things you post here are accurately described as communist ideals and communist positions. I'm confused as to why you object to this term so strongly when your objections are ridiculous and it's really beyond debate that communist very accurately describes your political and philosophical ideals.



Edit: You can't hijack Einstein's threads. Even he refuses to discuss the topic. big_smile

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Justinian empirical evidence shows almost all military coups and sudden dictators have a negative result.

A Republic is clearly the best, please concede this point so I can call you on other things.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

I think I agree that a republic is best, but damns people is stupids.

You hand 'em a republic and they hand it away! yikes

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Flint,

1. For me to concede that a Republic is the best government would be dishonest. The answer is simply "It depends."

2. The fact that most contemporary military coups lead to tyranny is irrelevant.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Come now, you can easily concede that based on existing empirical evidence and statistical outcomes... that if you were starting over as a new person in a random nation... that a Republic would currently be the best outcome.

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Flint: IA is right, it depends on the people... the only reason that a "republic" would be better in your scenario and IA's world is that it has more people, and thus a lower probability of being ruled by a "illiberal", or whatever term IA was using to describe "not liberal"

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but i am Jesus"
"Nothing is worse than a fully prepared fool"

22 (edited by V.Kemp 30-Apr-2012 05:15:47)

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Military coups and all dictators are tyrants and illiberal. They want to protect their power, and liberal policies inherently lead to people wanting freedom and a higher standard of living: a direct threat to their power.

Problem with republics is, most contemporary ones are filled with welfare queens who are liberal in some regards, but do want to tax your success in a socialist state where your ability to attain a really pleasant standard of living with lots of nice stuff is harmed significantly.

Military coups/dictators are illiberal by nature. What republics are depends on the culture, values, and intellect of their peoples.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

O M G !

I have to grow 10 years older only to see IA doing this:
"My major concerns are that people are guaranteed economic liberty and civil rights that protect them from political abuses"
Especially the civil rights part. I remember a very long thread were we debated endlessly about it.

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

There's been a lot of "We need to print these posts and frame them on a wall" moments recently.  tongue

Make Eyes Great Again!

The Great Eye is watching you... when there's nothing good on TV...

Re: Justinian I call thee outeth!

Justinian is slowly converting.

But some of the changes still catch me off guard wink

Everything bad in the economy is now Obama's fault. Every job lost, all the debt, all the lost retirement funds. All Obama. Are you happy now? We all get to blame Obama!
Kemp currently not being responded to until he makes CONCISE posts.
Avogardo and Noir ignored by me for life so people know why I do not respond to them. (Informational)