Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> Justinian I wrote:

> I agree. Eliminate lifetime pensions and other generous benefits, and then we can talk about raising teacher's pay.

Generous benefits such as health insurance? Lol. I think the main issue is cultural. Education in the U.S. just isn't given as much respect as it is other cultures. Thus, it is easy to imagine cutting the Department of Education's budget and screaming about how teachers are overpaid while the Department of Defense's enormous budget lives on.

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

102 (edited by V.Kemp 20-Apr-2012 02:07:42)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

mandrewsf,

"U mad? Because it seems that clear, cogent arguments are too much for your impotent intellectual capacity...."

You posted some retarded spam. I said that it was idiotic. Cry about it.

"And anyone who's ever received a decent education (and this clearly excludes you) would understand that it is hard to be a teacher."

And you go on to hypocritically call anyone who doesn't agree with you uneducated.

"I've been a TA in both high school and college and I know first-hand how much time and effort it requires to be a good teacher, and how little compensation they receive in return."

And here we learn the motivation for your drivel: You're not up to the task that idiots often accomplish. You feel society owes you more.

You didn't make "arguments," you made outrageous claims and I called you a troll or a moron. Your tone is condescending, your arguments are nonexistant, your claims are ridiculous, and everything about your posts is juvenile. You're clearly upset and you're ranting about me being "mad." Get over yourself. Nobody is impressed by you being impressed by you.

"From my personal experience, teachers seldom use the same curriculum twice, due to the different pace of different classes. "

Your experience? 2 months of TAing? You're such an expert. I stand corrected. Obviously many teachers often have to re-plan how to teach the same history, language, etc... Oh wait, that's retarded. That's a moronic claim. You're pissed that you didn't get a legitimate response, but my point is that garbage like this doesn't deserve one.

"My English teacher usually came to school at 6:30 in the morning and usually left around 5--a work day of 10 and half hours, not counting the extra time she spends for meetings, for school events, for grading big assignments like final papers, etc."

Completely irrelevant to the topic. You could have had 12 teachers that worked 14 hour days and it'd still be irrelevant. We're talking about teachers putting in the minimum hours with bachelors degrees getting $80,000+, 2 pensions, and premium benefits. That you have trouble learning to teach on a K-12 level isn't evidence of this not being unjustly burdensome on Amerikan taxpayers. We're talking about overcompensated teachers as an example of overpayed unionized government workers, and you're talking about teachers who aren't overcompensated. That many teachers aren't overcompensated in no way negates the point that has been made.

If you had a point I'd respond to it. I respect intelligence and knowledge, even when it doesn't support my position. But the ranting on irrelevant facts (nevermind the ridiculous claims), because presumably the poster doesn't have the presence of mind to understand what the topic is, is hardly a position of intellectual high ground.



Purin,

You quoted my summation of my point, then accused me of making an ad-hominem attack in calling someone a troll. Seeing as neither he nor you address points, you're sounding like a troll too.

"Here is another fallacy."

A fallacy is an error in reasoning, not a false claim. And, regardless, you're equivocating on irrelevant claims of personal experiences. I may have been wrong. Some people I mistake for trolls could be small children or just really stupid.



Zarf BeebleBrix,

I'm not "arguing" points like that the earth is round or water is wet to juvenile idiots/trolls. He was wrong. I said it. I don't care about a "legitimate" "method of arguing" to respond to angry simpletons ranting about irrelevant personal experiences and presumptions. You're not helping them by encouraging them. tongue




Purin,

"Teaching is something that I believe is underpaid."

Yet salaries are all determined locally and vary greatly from area to area, so this is a stupid generalization.

"Why not pay teachers that kind of salary, so the cream of the crop will have a monetary motive to become a teacher?"

Way to think inside the box! You're speaking as if salaries are the only variable here, and government control of most education, union power, and a virtual complete lack of accountability and competition don't matter.

Again, this is completely irrelevant to the topic. But if you want to ramble off-topic poorly, I'll criticize that too.




mandrewsf,

"Moreover, since teaching is already a relatively unattractive career, it will become even more difficult to attract talent if one of its only perks--that of job stability--is taken away, thus exacerbating an already serious problem."

You presume that job stability attracts good teachers disproportionately more than bad teachers. Too bad you have absolutely no basis for this claim; baseless, as well as pointless, conjecture.

The point of vouchers is to introduce competition into the education system. Private schools are still publicly funded with vouchers, but privately owned/managed. Again irrelevant, again over your head!

"If that is the case, then since maximizing success rates is a rational course of action for any doctor or lawyer, then it necessarily do not cause statistical distortions since the basis of action for all actors are the same. "

But they're not all in the same position. Different backrounds and firms give them different starting client bases, and different starting client bases influence their clients going forward.

lol @ mandrewsf not understanding Zarf BeebleBrix's well-articulated explanation.

lol @ Purin's incoherent remarks supposedly in response to Mr. BeebleBrix.


Purin,

"Generous benefits such as health insurance? Lol."

They tend to pay less into theirs than others privately employed. This is kinda relevant lol.

"I think the main issue is cultural. Education in the U.S. just isn't given as much respect as it is other cultures. Thus, it is easy to imagine cutting the Department of Education's budget and screaming about how teachers are overpaid while the Department of Defense's enormous budget lives on."

The department of education doesn't pay them. You have no idea what you're talking about but you're embarrassing yourself anyway. Don't stop. <3

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

lol @ Purin's incoherent remarks supposedly in response to Mr. BeebleBrix.


Purin,

"Generous benefits such as health insurance? Lol."

They tend to pay less into theirs than others privately employed. This is kinda relevant lol.

"I think the main issue is cultural. Education in the U.S. just isn't given as much respect as it is other cultures. Thus, it is easy to imagine cutting the Department of Education's budget and screaming about how teachers are overpaid while the Department of Defense's enormous budget lives on."

The department of education doesn't pay them. You have no idea what you're talking about but you're embarrassing yourself anyway. Don't stop. <3

Public schools receive federal funding right? Troll harder brah.

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

They receive federal funding, but it's not directly for teacher salaries. Those are determined 100% locally. The point isn't federal funding harming education, the point is that you clearly lack an understanding of the topic.

Nevermind that the topic is irrelevant. You clearly lack an understanding of that too, no matter how many times I succinctly sum up the point. You ignore it and equivocate over some irrelevant detail like federal funding contributing indirectly to teacher salary levels.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

*Sigh* Here we go.

"A fallacy is an error in reasoning, not a false claim. And, regardless, you're equivocating on irrelevant claims of personal experiences. I may have been wrong."

Yes I am glad you know what a fallacy is. Since you know what one is, you should be able to see that the inductive reasoning I was pointing to being used was fallacious. I wasn't indicating that his statement was a false claim, but rather the faulty reasoning strategy of "In my experience".

"You quoted my summation of my point, then accused me of making an ad-hominem attack in calling someone a troll. Seeing as neither he nor you address points, you're sounding like a troll too."

I'm addressing the point of your argument being illegitimate due to your ad hominem attacks. I don't have to make points in response to your argument in order to point out that your argument is illegitimate. smile

"Some people I mistake for trolls could be small children or just really stupid." Hmm. More ad-hominem attacks here.

"Way to think inside the box! You're speaking as if salaries are the only variable here, and government control of most education, union power, and a virtual complete lack of accountability and competition don't matter."

I'm speaking as if salaries are the only variable? Did you miss my part in saying the phrase 'monetary motive'? If I wanted to emphasize that salaries were the sole and only variable in making career decisions, why did I choose to emphasize the word monetary and not just say motive?

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

@ V.Kemp,

Don't talk back when you are not talked to. Most of what you've quoted were not even addressed to you. I find as much need to respond to any of your points as a herdsman to his cows and sheep.

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> Don't talk back when you are not talked to. Most of what you've quoted were not even addressed to you.

Why's this important?

This is a forum, not a one-on-one chat.

Brother Simon, Keeper of Ages, Defender of Faith.
~ &#9773; Fokker

108 (edited by xeno syndicated 20-Apr-2012 04:33:43)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

How to fix the US economy (and others)...

Step one: 
Government determines what is adding value to society, and pays people accordingly to make more of that happen.
Step two:
Government determines what is diminishing value from society, and fines people who are responsible for making that happen.
Step three:
Government bolsters systems by which self-regulating, self perpetuating, private sector systems ensure that those people who add value to society are rewarded while those who diminish value from society are penalized. 
Step four:
If successful in the above steps 1 through 3, government relinquishes some of its power and jurisdiction to private sector, and cuts spending and taxes.  If not successful in the above steps 1 through 3, it reclaims power and jurisdiction from private sector systems, increases spending and taxes repeats steps one through four.

109 (edited by [PW9]~KT~ 20-Apr-2012 05:12:54)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Purin, mocking you while making legitimate points does not negate the presence of legitimate points. Your claim that it does is stupid.

mandrewsf, wipe up the floor. [ removed ]

The point is that certain unionized government workers get significantly better pay, benefits, and pensions than their jobs, educations, and performance justify in comparison to their private sector counterparts--and that taxation to pay for this inefficient waste is a burden on the economy. That X% of teachers aren't overpayed/are underpayed is a trivial debate of no significance to this point.

That you keep prattling on because your parents are or you want to be (but find it too hard to be) teachers is just juvenile and pointless. While I enjoy making fun of children, I'm only so immature. This is too dumb to enjoy much, even for me.



xeno,

That's called communism. As it turns out, government is a poor judge of what adds value or determining proper rewards for such behavior. Read up on literally any communist nation to learn of the poverty and horrible conditions that it entails. I must respectfully disagree that the US economy would benefit from communism. tongue

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

well educated children are investments for decades. you cannot expect good education without good teachers&payment.

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Nor can you expect payment to be the primary motivator of good educators nor can you expect payment alone to buy good education.

REALITY CHECK: Our education spending has skyrocketed and our results have stayed the same or fallen. This is evidence that funding is not the biggest problem, if it is a problem at all.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> V.Kemp wrote:

> Purin, mocking you while making legitimate points does not negate the presence of legitimate points. Your claim that it does is stupid.

You are using your 'mocking' as a form of rhetoric in order to conceal the fact that your ideas have no substance behind them.

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

It's merely in addition to the substance, which you're apparently afraid to respond to, because of your ridiculously child-like demeanor. smile

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> V.Kemp wrote:

> It's merely in addition to the substance, which you're apparently afraid to respond to, because of your ridiculously child-like demeanor. smile

How did you infer that I'm afraid to respond to your points? Hypothetically, if I didn't respond to any points (which isn't true), that would not necessarily mean that I am afraid to respond to them. And I find it ironic that the person calling others child-like and immature is resorting to immature name calling himself. smile

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

115 (edited by V.Kemp 20-Apr-2012 07:56:52)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

I'm not calling anybody names. I've merely described an embarrassingly stupid exchange where two posters got upset that someone disagreed with them over a mostly irrelevant detail, cried, made ridiculous claims, and bizarrely tried to claim some sort of intellectual high ground.

How do you expect anyone to respond when you have ignored the fundamental points of relevance to this thread's topic? You have given them absolutely 0 response. You've chosen instead to harp about teachers, a small sub-set of a group described which is actually relevant to the thread's topic. Given that their salaries/benefits differ greatly from location to location, nearly all discussion of the topic in this thread has been ignorant, stupid, and irrelevant.

If you want to be treated like an adult, act like one. You know what the thread's topic is. You know how to be civil. You know how not to ignore real points and how not to rage about relatively minor details. Acting self-righteous and pretending you've touched the thread's topic doesn't make it so. Acting as if I'm some dim-whit without an education doesn't make it so.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Purin has admitted to worshiping Derrida, the titan of real life trolls. Even Noam Chomsky said as much about Derrida. It's now become obvious that he is trolling us with "deconstruction."

I really don't like ignore lists. In the years I have been on IC, I have yet to find anyone bizarre enough to deserve it. But Purin does.

/ignore Purin

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

I surely should ignore the weird children, but then who would I respond to? smile

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

118 (edited by Purin 20-Apr-2012 08:40:02)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Lolololololol. Clearly someone is jealous of Derrida and his great contributions to philosophy.

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

119 (edited by Zarf BeebleBrix 20-Apr-2012 08:39:07)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

lol [Bad!] got pwnt

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

120 (edited by Purin 20-Apr-2012 08:57:56)

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

2 posts modded on this page alone V. Kemp, the calm rational intellectual that doesn't resort to name calling wink. Someone got pwnd

And also "If you want to be treated like an adult, act like one. You know what the thread's topic is. You know how to be civil. You know how not to ignore real points and how not to rage about relatively minor details. Acting self-righteous and pretending you've touched the thread's topic doesn't make it so. Acting as if I'm some dim-whit without an education doesn't make it so."

Thats good advice. Please take it yourself smile

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Edited posts do not denote anger.

Ignoring absolutely all subject material and getting pissy like a child and posting purely to rage does.

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> V.Kemp wrote:

> Edited posts do not denote anger.

Ignoring absolutely all subject material and getting pissy like a child and posting purely to rage does.

They certainly denote the breaking of forum rules. Where have I gotten pissy in this argument? I've been calm and rational, not insulting you while you clearly insult my maturity and intelligence in every post. In fact you seem to have problems with a lot of posters in this forum. Perhaps, you're the one with the problem and not the others that you demean?

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

"Where have I gotten pissy in this argument?"

Only where you posted.

You're obviously an angry child. I'm just going to ignore you now.

One parting joke:
"I've been calm and rational" lulz!

[I wish I could obey forum rules]

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

> V.Kemp wrote:

> "Where have I gotten pissy in this argument?"

Only where you posted.

You're obviously an angry child. I'm just going to ignore you now.

One parting joke:
"I've been calm and rational" lulz!

Twice calmer than you bro. Anyways, you aren't worth my time. You have to spew insults in order to validate your poor self image. Good luck with that smile

Man is condemned to be free; because once thrown into the world, he is responsible for everything he does. --Sartre

Re: How to Fix the US Economy

Right, no more of this, way off topic and becoming personal attacks...closing this (for now at least, everyone take a break!)

I give your invention the worst score imaginable. An A minus MINUS!
~Wornstrum~